[NLA] Thursday Notes, 3/14/02

[Catherine King]

Hello Pam:

No one on this list, including myself, has swept all
of business under a "bain of all evil" label or
advocated to throw out all business (the baby) 
because of bad business practices (the water).

On the contrary, I have been suggesting we make
clear the distinction between good and bad
business, good and bad intentions, good and bad
policy, and finding the right relationship between
capitalist and commonwealth principles with regard
to education policy.  A critical reading of all past 
posts will show this distinction is at work, and not 
the misguided idea that all business or 
corporations are "evil" as you suggest they do.

Granted, this distinction flies in the fact of over-
generalizations and cliches, but there it is.  

But I see nothing in your post about good business
that conflicts with what I have been saying along, 
save equating argument with "rancor," and a 
misreading of the distinctions I and others have 
made in every NLA post between some businesses
and corporations and others.  

Like you, I want to keep the baby (capitalism). 
 I just want it to stay clean and know its place in a 
democratic-commonwealth political 
environment where "the people" are not 
overlooked, forgotten, or politically erased by
great hubric powers who may do these things 
at will.  By the way, who do you suppose is
closing down our medical privacy laws?

Regards,

Catherine King
  

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Pam Creighton 
  To: nla at lists.literacytent.org 
  Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 9:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [NLA] Thursday Notes, 3/14/02


  Gloria and others of the NLA list:
   
  I am so glad to hear another perspective.  Despite major corporate fiascos like Enron, business is not the bain of all evil as it is sometimes portrayed by people on this list.  I am the product of the Corporate Training Field, and worked many years for a large, conservative international corporation.  The training and experience I received there has been extremely beneficial in my work with a community based literacy organization.  
   
  The ASTD reports may be flawed in some of their writings and summaries, but that doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater.  The organization has produced a number of excellent publications which have been used by educators over the years.  We also must remember how "flawed" some of the research has been in our own field.  
   
  We liberal educators often feel we are the only voice speaking for "the folks."   That may be true, but let's make sure we convey the message without rancor, and with some appreciation of how hard it is to run businesses.  Let's walk in their shoes for awhile before we blame and dismiss the business community.
   
  Pam Creighton
  pam at opup.net
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Gloria Gillette 
    To: nla at lists.literacytent.org 
    Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 5:41 PM
    Subject: Re: [NLA] Thursday Notes, 3/14/02


    Harry,
    The American Society of Training and Development (ASTD) and the National Governors Associations are not exactly unknowns, nor do these words offend me in any way:
    (.. to make e-learning the cornerstone of a national effort to develop a skilled workforce for America's digital economy . . . .By embracing e-learning in our states, our communities and our organizations, ( What does this mean? ) we can improve our competitiveness and point the way to a new era of unprecedented growth and opportunity for all Americans).
     
    What the ASTD does not do, is say that education is the exclusive domain of "educators" and that what the field of training and education (by the way, that's us) has failed to do is adequately express or convince the business world of the importance of education. It is the inability of "educators" to collaborate and cross the divide into the realm of business (such as Catherine's post ) that stymies much of of our work. 

    Read ASTD's white paper "Profit from Learning: Do Firm's Investments in Education and Training Pay Off?"
    In it they say:
    "Although it is now commonly understood that the acquisition of knowledge is central to the competitive advantage of individuals and organizations in today's economy, the question of how much to invest in workforce education and training has long confounded business executives and managers alike.The problem:firms have never had good information...."

    As an adullt educator what does that tell you?

    It tells me that we are not very good at communicating, at crossing the divide,
    at making our point. Diatribes on how we are marginalized and whoa is us, and us against them only diminish our work and our importance. 
    If we've failed to let the business world understand and know our importance, if we've failed to learn their vocabulary and to communicate, who's bad is it? 
    Gloria Gillette


      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Harry Forster 
      To: nla at lists.literacytent.org 
      Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 9:09 AM
      Subject: Re: [NLA] Thursday Notes, 3/14/02


      Gloria Gillette wrote:

        Catherine,
        I have tried to keep an open mind through your postings, but  honestly when you say things such as:
               In some situations and to some folks,
             educating adults is counter-productive to their
             financial, and so their political, concerns
                This situation affects AE programs in the USA when
             policy makers are influenced by those among us who
             consider educated or socially-politically aware adults
             as a dangerous threat to their corporate-business
             concerns.

        Do you really think "corporate-business concerns" sit around and conspire against literacy? 
        I'm quite democratic in my concern for good writing. Even the most pedantic diatribe can lack critical thinking skills.
        Gloria Gillette
      I am not sure that "against" is the correct term but there are some realities that I think are necessary for policy planners to understand.   I have some personal experiences that are difficult to comprehend.  They make Catherine look benign.  Below is part of an email that I sent to Catherine.  It comes from a report sent in a Thursday Notes:  "Using Electronic Assessment to Measure Student Performance"


      "The Commission on Technology and Adult Learning, (Who is this group?  What do they do? How are you related to them?) sponsored by the American Society for Training and Development and the National Governors Association, has expressed a similar sentiment. "The commission . . . encourages governors, CEOs and other leaders ( Why does it not explicitly indicate educators or adult educators?  It is ommissions of this type that raise questions in my mind.   I see this often.) to make e-learning the cornerstone of a national effort to develop a skilled workforce for America's digital economy . . . .By embracing e-learning in our states, our communities and our organizations, ( What does this mean? ) we can improve our competitiveness and point the way to a new era of unprecedented growth and opportunity for all Americans.  (Do you think that this is the panacea that they say it is?)"  
      [ page 2]

      I believe that this does not show an active aggression "against"  education,  but there is an exclusion of education policy makers, for a matter that is in the education field.   Idealism is a good property, however, idealism must recognize that the greater forces are not paying attention to your ideals.  They are concerned with  politics (governors), business (CEOs), and other leaders (what ever that means).  Here is a "Commission on Technology and Adult Learning"  and it can not even find a term for AE planners unless it is the very bland "other leaders".  I tell you that you will get the  respect indicated above until your ideals can be a market for technology.  Believe me this repulses me as much as it does you.  This is one of the reason that I can not give you a title for my position.  Ask Catherine.  

      Harry Forster








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