[NLA] Discussion: AELS and Higher Ed

Fri Dec 6 16:45:15 EST 2002

Hi Catherine,
Just one word.
Balance.

Carl Guerriere
Executive Director/Literacy Advocate
Greater Hartford Literacy Council
99 Pratt Street
Hartford, CT  06103
(860) 522-7323 (522-READ) NEW NUMBER!
www.greaterhartfordreads.org
Fax: (860) 722-2486

-----Original Message-----
From: nla-admin at lists.literacytent.org
[mailto:nla-admin at lists.literacytent.org]On Behalf Of Catherine B. King
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 4:05 PM
To: nla at lists.literacytent.org
Subject: Re: [NLA] Discussion: AELS and Higher Ed

Hello Carl:

Your recent note on the NLA crystallizes everything that is wrong
with foundational notions that we have talked about for a long
time.

First you say:  "Thank you for writing what I was thinking (e.g.,
people generalizing their experiences) to the detriment of
meaningful discussion. It is one of major frustrations with the
discussions on this listserv."

Though too-quick generalization is indeed important to watch for,
so is a complete disregard for personal experience (site and
persons) in discussions about human affairs.  This oversight is
highly common to those who want human sciences to look and
act like natural sciences.   There goes the dialogue with the
evidence and the data, which happens to be (1) conscious
and dynamic, (2) <more>, not less, important than the
generalization, and (3) what generalizations are there to serve.

Further, just as we can over-generalize drawing universals from
experience, so too can we obsess about our beloved prescribed
generalized "knowledge" where we disregard the human
experience that doesn't fit into our pseudo-scientific scheme
of things.them.  Hence, science becomes political when it
fails to account for all of the particulars, or in the case of this
listserve, listen to all the voices that have something to say about
their own experience to make sure both science and  policy cover
them all--I don't think science has done that in its history up to now,
nor has it understood its relationship to the particular in human
affairs.   But by your second paragraph I take that you don't
want to talk about that or how it might influence the way we do
things in adult education, or education in general.  You don't have
to read anything here.

Second, you say, "I also read a lot of posts where people
advocate for policies solely based on their philosophies
(educational theory, human behavior, organizational behavior,
etc.) in defiance of data and research or they find only the data
and research that supports their theories."

Perhaps you mean "in defiance" of both interpretations and
qualifications of the data and "in defiance" of egregious
oversights of and within it, rather than the data itself?

If so, this is true, in my case, at least.   And I trust you can
say why this is not important to do so?

Also, my philosophical theories are both available to
anyone who would like to see them, and they are verified
through generalized empirical method--they are not just
arbitrary, nor are they suitable for this list.  Nor am I
uncritical.  I do not ignore data that does not meet with
theory, nor accept theory without reasonable verification.
That would be  unscientific.  If you have evidence of my
doing so, I would be grateful to be made aware of it, as
would others on this list, I am sure.  Except that I don't
take one field as the only field?  Every field has a
philosophical background, and my field is philosophy and
specifically educational philosophy.  General empirical
method covers this field and lies at the foundation
of all of them.  It is not only critical, it takes up the
foundation of criticism itself.

Also, all of our political foundations as teachers, etc., in
the USA, are democratic (not party, but in the larger sense
of the word), I presume?  But when policy begins to stray
from those foundations, we should at least say something?
Isn't it the job of an educator to raise questions about
these issues?

And I find it very disturbing that any educator would not
understand the concrete import of these deeper issues on
what you are rightly claiming is most important on this list:
Results, and "how to analyze and frame issues."  Just
as personal experience should not necessarily be
generalized, neither should philosophical naiveté be
projected into all scientific fields and common discourse.

We are all advocating for adult education, and all of us, from
different fields, have a place in the dialogue?   Or would you
not agree with that?

Regards,

Catherine King
Adjunct Instructor
Department of Education
National University
San Diego, CA

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Guerriere <mailto:carl.guerriere at po.state.ct.us>
To: nla at lists.literacytent.org
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 9:12 AM
Subject: RE: [NLA] Discussion: AELS and Higher Ed

Eileen,
Thank you for writing what I was thinking (e.g., people generalizing their
experiences) to the detriment of meaningful discussion. It is one of major
frustrations with the discussions on this listserv.

I also read a lot of posts where people advocate for policies solely based
on their philosophies (educational theory, human behavior, organizational
behavior, etc.) in defiance of data and research or they find only the data
and research that supports their theories.

Policy makers and advocates must reach a healthy balance.
Am I wrong in assuming that one of the major functions of this listserv is
to expand our knowledge base in order to develop effective policy and
advocacy efforts?  That can only happen if we are truly open minded.  For me
too much discussion ends up being philosophical fighting by too few people.

Perhaps we need to have discussion about how to analyze and frame issues.
If we are to come together as field and promote common goals, we have to get
better at policy making and advocacy strategies.  I am much more interested
in discussions that are more results-oriented.  There is a need for
effective analysis of issues and sharing and development of practical
advocacy initiatives.  Too often there is neither.

Carl Guerriere
Executive Director/Literacy Advocate
Greater Hartford Literacy Council
99 Pratt Street
Hartford, CT  06103
(860) 522-7323 (522-READ) NEW NUMBER!
www.greaterhartfordreads.org
Fax: (860) 722-2486

-----Original Message-----
From: nla-admin at lists.literacytent.org
[ mailto:nla-admin at lists.literacytent.org]On Behalf Of Eileen Eckert
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 8:33 AM
To: nla at lists.literacytent.org
Subject: Re: [NLA] Discussion: AELS and Higher Ed

Nancy,
You seem to be willing to generalize the idea that community colleges are a
bad place for AELS students. I believe you that it wouldn't work for your
situation, but your objections don't apply everywhere.

You've agreed with David and objected to the idea of aligning AELS with
higher ed. Your objections (and others') are based on generalizing your
experience in South Dakota to everywhere, on what you think students <would>
experience in such a system, and on some assumptions that don't hold true.

First, if a program gets federal funding, it uses the NRS, whether it's
administered through K-12, community colleges, or whoever.

Second, administering AELS through higher ed. doesn't mean CBO's have to be
excluded.

Third, if an AELS program is in a community college, that does not
necessarily mean those students have to go through the same process as
matriculated students, be left out or marginalized, etc.

I'm not arguing for universal administration of AELS through the community
college system, or any other entity. I believe both Nancy and Dixie that it
wouldn't be a good idea in their states. But please have the courtesy to
consider that it may work in other states, and your experience is not the
only one.

>From: Nancy Hansen <sfallsliteracy at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: nla at lists.literacytent.org
>To: nla at lists.literacytent.org
>Subject: Re: [NLA] Discussion: AELS and Higher Ed
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:05:05 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>Dixie - should the two of us tell Eileen about the REAL picture of "bus
>tickets" in Montana and South Dakota?  Eileen, communities don't HAVE mass
>transit that travels on an hourly basis from one _town_ to the other when
>the towns/ cities/ villages are HOURS apart, rather than minutes.
>N Hansen
>Sioux Falls, SD
>  Eileen Eckert <eileeneckert at hotmail.com> wrote:Dixie Stark writes:
>"The primary reason that oversight for the AELS should not be through
>Higher
>Ed is that these funds are to help adults gain K-12 skills. In the higher
>ed
>system, if a student needs catch-up work in basic skills, the student is
>charged for credits that do not count toward graduation, AND do not count
>for meeting the requirement of full-time attendance for financial
>assistance. As a result, students in higher ed that do not have all of the
>necessary foundation skills are heavily penalized by paying high rates for
>credits that will do them no good---what they really need is the basic
>skills so that they can move into regular "for-credit" classes that count."
>
>Dixie,
>In the community colleges where I worked, ABE, GED, and ESL existed as
>parts
>of adult ed. programs, and developmental reading, writing, math, and study
>skills courses were part of other departments. As a teacher, I encouraged
>my
>students to set goals for themselves that went beyond getting the minimum
>passing GED score, and to learn as much as possible so they could enter the
>college-level classes that count toward graduation and not spend time and
>financial aid money on developmental courses. When I had some
>administrative
>and leadership responsibility, I encouraged other teachers and staff to
>help
>students go on to college, and formed relationships with student services
>programs, as well as faculty in the key transition areas (English, reading,
>and math). Being in a community college was an asset in that situation, I
>believe.
>
>Dixie writes:
>"In rural states, there are areas that are more than 100 miles from any
>kind
>of community college. It is not in the best interest of students who lack
>funds and reliable transportation to be limited to such institutions when
>they seek to gain basic literacy skills. To move funds/leadership to higher
>ed would be a disaster in our rural state."
>
>Referring again to my experience in community colleges, the entity through
>which funding is streamed is not necessarily the physical location of all
>services. We were very fortunate in being able to piggyback on the
>relationship between the student association of the college where I worked
>and the regional transit company so that our students got free bus passes
>when they enrolled (which led to some other problems, but that's another
>story). I know of programs that are many miles from the campus that is
>their
>nominal home. Just as not all of your programs are located in schools, not
>all those administered by colleges are physically in colleges.
>
>I'm remembering Tom Sticht's surprise that people could think of AELS as
>just a way to remediate K-12 deficiencies, and Cecil Smith's comment that
>"scientific" research doesn't to preclude the use of qualitative
>methods. I know that in my own case, I can easily confuse barriers that can
>exist or have existed in some circumstances with barriers that are endemic
>to a particular phenomenon. For example, funding AELS through higher ed.
>doesn't and isn't always associated with the barriers Dixie and
>David mentioned, though it can be. I think Debbie's question was more about
>relationships between adult ed. and research universities, too, a "what if"
>question aimed at identifying some ideals, while we're responding in terms
>of AELS and community colleges, where we already have relationships in some
>states. I think we easily generalize problems, barriers, and restrictions
>and thereby make things even harder for ourselves than the real
>restrictions
>make them--and the real restrictions, it seems to me, are barriers enough!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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