[AAACE-NLA] Genetic vs. developed "LDs"

Mon May 24 09:23:29 EDT 2010

Michael, 

I think It is necessary to read in a field and come to one's own conclusions before passing judgment. There are areas in brain science which may illuminate the daily practice of the teacher. 

Andrea 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Gyori" <tesolmichael at yahoo.com> 
To: "National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE" <aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org> 
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:54:40 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Genetic vs. developed "LDs" 

Andrea, 

There is no way I can or would wish to disagree with you. Teacher or not, those who do not embrace and engage in lifelong learning will invariably miss something, whether or not it can help inform pedagogy (in the literacy-driven classroom, not Harvard Medical School). 

Reverting to the discussions about brain science, becoming knowledgeable in it is undoubtedly a worthy pursuit. My concerns tie in far more with issues Hugo Kerr and Tom Sticht have raised - namely: 1) the relationships we forge with whatever we may study and the possible affects of what we might deem to be immutable truth on our students and 2) the scan evidence that neuroscience is in a position to properly inform education practices (for now, at least). 

Personally, I see red flags all over when newly-derived understandings become "The Way." When we regard "truth" as immutable, we have effectively ended our openness to more learning. We need to keep our minds and hearts open (as I sense you very well know). 

Michael 

Michael A. Gyori 

Maui International Language School 

www.mauilanguage.com 

From: "andreawilder at comcast.net" <andreawilder at comcast.net> 
To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE <aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org> 
Sent: Sat, May 22, 2010 8:58:13 AM 
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Genetic vs. developed "LDs" 

I think that the wider education a teacher (ordinary, with a goal of educating students) has, the more a subject is delved into, the wider a frame of reference is developed. Especially in these difficult areas, I think it is the responsibility of the teacher to do the learning and make the judgments...this is a continuous process. Unless the teacher is an idiot (always possible), knowing the cause will change the teacher and the practice. It's more information. It may be a minute change, but it will be there. 

In the case of learning more about the brain, it is not an instance of seeing something and then understanding what is happening and applying a remedy. It is an instance of starting the process of self-education. This is what "being a teacher" means--continuing self-education and self-development, teaching and learning, teaching and learning. 

Andrea 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Gyori" <tesolmichael at yahoo.com> 
To: "National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE" <aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org> 
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 3:12:14 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Genetic vs. developed "LDs" 

If you know the etiology, it might shed light on many things other than teaching. Knowing causes need not lead to better teaching practices... 

Michael 

Michael A. Gyori 

Maui International Language School 

www.mauilanguage.com 

From: "andreawilder at comcast.net" <andreawilder at comcast.net> 
To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE <aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org> 
Sent: Fri, May 21, 2010 2:57:21 AM 
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Genetic vs. developed "LDs" 

If you know the etiology you have a chance of using teaching methods which are known to work with the person who has this type of problem. That's all. 

Andrea 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Gyori" <tesolmichael at yahoo.com> 
To: "The AAACE-NLA Discussion List" <aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 3:49:11 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: [AAACE-NLA] Genetic vs. developed "LDs" 

Art and all, 

I have been providing educational services to immigrants in vocational rehab for about ten years now (most of them receiving workmens comp from their insurance carriers due to workplace injuries, some of them very severe and occasionally resulting in a subsequent determination of total disability). As I am sure you can well imagine, the scope of those services is quite multi-faceted, and I interface with doctors, nurses, hospital patient services, therapists, social workers, attorneys, and hearings officers as a result, not to mention advocacy and networking within my community. Most I have worked with are gainfully employed in physically undemanding jobs, drawing on additional cognitive skills they developed in class. 

As I mentioned in a previous message on some list, I worked with one girl in her late teens who was referred to me with a diagnosis of mild mental retardation (without physical injuries). Genetic? Developed? Her interpersonal skills were, well...shall we say nonexistent? Might some have "diagnosed" her as being autistic? She didn't have the wherewithal to engage in any social setting (including work) and stayed at home all day with her parents and siblings. After working with this young woman in a small ESL adult group setting and after several interactions with her family (who were clearly putting the brakes on her physical and mental movements), she finally ended up securing fulltime employment at McDonalds. I can to this day not forget the incredible progress she ended up making in her interpersonal skills (written and phone interactions with her after she left class remain memorable for me to this day) although funding didn't allow for the amount of needed class time for her to make noticeable academic / cognitive progress. I don't know whether she would have in the first place - but I'm fine with what was accomplished. 

After this wordy backdrop, my question to you is: when would you say a (learning) disability is manifestly genetic, one we are born into this world with? When is a disability such that no imaginable intervention would produce any results? Further, when all is said and done, does it really matter? Is the genetic vs. developed distinction meaningful and useful? 

Michael 

Michael A. Gyori 

Maui International Language School 

www.mauilanguage.com 

From: Art LaChance <ruhtra.glc at ellijay.com> 
To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE <aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org> 
Sent: Tue, May 18, 2010 4:04:57 AM 
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Fight, flight, Angst, and/or pain 

I understand completely Susan. I do not think fight/flight is the singular issue and I do believe that there are in fact many genetics that produce sometimes identical behaviors in children and adults. I've worked with that group also as a rehabilitation counselor in a vocational rehab setting. The group I'm referring to in my blabber is the group that has been affected by and is responding to the fight flight. If I can reverse the situation and the child/adult suddenly ends up "learning" at a normal rate under normal conditions ie without intense intervention and interaction - what does that say about the educational system that threw off to the side with an "official diagnosis" and left them to their own devices ? 

Show me the "accommodations" that provide a fourth grader who has fallen behind in math by two years and feels/acts totally incompetent. I, we, don't see it here or anywhere else, these kids are falling by the wayside and suffering their entire lives because they have absolutely zero self-efficacy when it comes to reading or math competency. The relief for all concerned is to label the child and walk away, put them in a daycare special ed or simply ignore them and let them falter. 

McGilloway, Susan S. wrote: 
> "So how would the system deal with this situation? Change the entire delivery system to accommodate the oddities ? Or continue on as designed because it's still effective for almost 50% ? " 
> 
> I don't see it as black or white, either/or. I see it being inclusive to 
> all and meeting each student where he or she is. That is what 
> accommodations provide - assistance for those who need it. The goal of 
> scientific exploration of LDs is to learn something of how they develop, 
> and, hopefully, to find better therapies to assist students. I think it 
> is simplistic to say that all disorders are related to fight or flight. 
> I mentioned a 15 year old boy who has multiple learning disabilities and 
> mild autism that is due to the fact that his mother did not produce 
> enough amniotic fluid for him to move while in utero. That certainly 
> does not indicate a fight or flight response. 
> 
> Susan McGilloway 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: aaace-nla-bounces at lists.literacytent.org 
> [mailto: aaace-nla-bounces at lists.literacytent.org ] On Behalf Of Art 
> LaChance 
> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 11:07 AM 
> To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE 
> Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Fight, flight, Angst, and/or pain 
> 
> " After all, such medicalized diagnoses ended up serving as elixirs to some individuals. " 
> 
> Michael, 
> 
> Unfortunately for all concerned, this applies to every system involved; education, pharmaceutical, medical, psychological etc. I don't think it 
> 
> began this way but it for sure ended up here. Historical cumulative Ree-search has identified several, as in many, physical attributes of behavior in response to varying situations, but they are all tied to the 
> 
> same source. Fight/Flight comes in different strengths. Example: as a child - about two days after you smoked your finger in the candle fire and raised a black blister, some idiot grabs your hand and moves toward the fire again, what would your response be at that point? Compare that 
> 
> with the adult version if today somebody grabbed your hand and moved toward the fire. Sure - the response would be there but not as out-of-control as the child version. And yes - the MRI's would certainly show a rather elaborate response pattern to certain stimuli - IF - the child had previously developed the 'innate' response to what it 
> 
> interpreted as a 'threat'. And then gage the child's response to sour ice-cream and see the difference in affect. 
> 
> I've arrived at my understanding, wherever that is, not by reading books 
> 
> or listening to professionals blabber but by over 20 years of hands-on experience with multitudes of people, children and adults, who had been physically brain injured via car accidents etc, and/or emotionally destroyed via subtle experiences connected directly to home or school. 
> The system has told me many many times that the child 'just cannot learn 
> 
> math' therefore we have diagnosed him/her as having a learning disability/ math. Then, an alternative source restores the child/adult's self-efficacy and the child learns math at a normal rate via normal methodology.......??? Don't get me wrong here, sometimes it's far more extensive than just providing a comfortable and understanding atmosphere - sometimes it will take session after session for months to unseat the angst and restore the 'trust' factor before the 
> 
> child will allow the exposure to the fire. As long as it doesn't 'burn' again. If it burns? Back to square one. 
> 
> So how would the system deal with this situation? Change the entire delivery system to accommodate the oddities ? Or continue on as designed because it's still effective for almost 50% ? 
> Art 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Gyori wrote: 
> 
>> Greetings Art, Hugo, George, and all, 
>> I'd like to share some thoughts about pre- & post-NIFL a.k.a. fight or 
>> 
> 
> 
>> flight, and now the newest nomenclature, Angst and pain. I believe it 
>> 
> 
> 
>> all started with the notion of "noncognitive" or "soft skills," both of which sound so antiquated by now... 
>> Rather recently, discussions were underway on NIFL's LD list surrounding ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, fMRIs, and the like. Some, Hugo and myself included, expressed skepticism about these alleged conditions and claims that brain scans appeared to confirm their existence. Not surprisingly, I was led to understand that the discussions didn't sit well with at least a few subscribers. After all, such medicalized diagnoses ended up serving as elixirs to some individuals. They were led to believe that in fact there /was /something innately wrong with them and that it /wasn't /their fault. It comes as no surprise that any perceived challenges to those very "diagnoses" had a threatening quality. It's difficult, after all, to question a sense of relief (even if it might just be learned helplessness). Hugo and I agree completely that the role of affect in learning is paramount (based on previous on-list and off-list interactions). Art's and George's reasoning would lead me to believe that they do, too. Discussions about the primacy of affect on the LD list was met with considerable affirmation from other subscribers, but the discussions appeared to wane around the chicken or egg question - i.e., do innate conditions engender negative affect, or does negative affect engender acquired conditions (good old nature vs. nurture). 
>> /Fight/ and /flight/ do indeed conjure images of a cornered rabid wolf. The adopted German and Yiddish term /Angst/, say among WW II Holocaust survivors, can also denote a very powerful feeling. /Pain/ feels a trifle gentler, accompanied by feelings of sadness and resignation. Whatever terms we may choose, and often we simply don't have just the right words in some languages, the discussion unfolding on the NLA list is a very important one, in my opinion. It has the makings of a paradigm shift in how we view and inform the very acts of teaching and 
>> 
> 
> 
>> learning. Granted, making a new paradigm operationally meaningful and 
>> 
> 
> 
>> transparent can be a source of frustration for practioners who are looking for better ways to approach challenges in education here and now rather than there and then. 
>> Michael 
>> 
>> Michael A. Gyori 
>> 
>> Maui International Language School 
>> 
>> www.mauilanguage.com <http://www.mauilanguage.com/> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
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