[AAACE-NLA] Genetic vs. developed "LDs"

Fri May 21 11:30:58 EDT 2010

Michael,

I do not have as much hands-on experience, but I recently graduated with a
B.S. in Neuroscience. Your email inspires thoughts fresh from my
coursework... It seems to me that the distinction between genetic and
non-genetic is not very important. It is the old nature-vs.-nurture
question. And the answer seems to be -- both nature AND nurture are
important. What is really interesting is how your environment can interact
with your physiology and your DNA, and how those changes are manifest.  I
think your example is a perfect example of how experience can change the
brain, and therefore, behavior. It is important always to have high
expectations, in order to allow someone with an LD to reach their greatest
potential.

I think the genetic question is a paradox, and also that it's kind of
dangerous to think about it too much and apply it to how you treat someone.
It is a paradox because of course your genetics are your destiny -
unchangeable, and your body's instructions for how to make itself. But at
the same time, the nervous system is so plastic. And as you saw with the
girl's family, treating someone in a certain way because of a diagnosis can
cause a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Genevieve Ray
Volunteer Manager, Turning Pages
AmeriCorps* VISTA
803-240-2441

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Michael Gyori <tesolmichael at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Art and all,
>
> I have been providing educational services to immigrants in vocational
> rehab for about ten years now (most of them receiving workmens comp from
> their insurance carriers due to workplace injuries, some of them very severe
> and occasionally resulting in a subsequent determination of total
> disability).  As I am sure you can well imagine, the scope of those services
> is quite multi-faceted, and I interface with doctors, nurses, hospital
> patient services, therapists, social workers, attorneys, and hearings
> officers as a result, not to mention advocacy and networking within my
> community. Most I have worked with are gainfully employed in physically
> undemanding jobs, drawing on additional cognitive skills they developed in
> class.
>
> As I mentioned in a previous message on some list, I worked with one girl
> in her late teens who was referred to me with a diagnosis of mild mental
> retardation (without physical injuries).  Genetic? Developed? Her
> interpersonal skills were, well...shall we say nonexistent? Might some have
> "diagnosed" her as being autistic?  She didn't have the wherewithal to
> engage in any social setting (including work) and stayed at home all day
> with her parents and siblings.  After working with this young woman in a
> small ESL adult group setting and after several interactions with her family
> (who were clearly putting the brakes on her physical and mental movements),
> she finally ended up securing fulltime employment at McDonalds. I can to
> this day not forget the incredible progress she ended up making in her
> interpersonal skills (written and phone interactions with her after she left
> class remain memorable for me to this day) although funding didn't allow for
> the amount of needed class time for her to make noticeable academic /
> cognitive progress.  I don't know whether she would have in the first place
> - but I'm fine with what was accomplished.
>
> After this wordy backdrop, my question to you is: when would you say a
> (learning) disability is manifestly genetic, one we are born into this world
> with? When is a disability such that no imaginable intervention would
> produce any results?  Further, when all is said and done, does it really
> matter?  Is the genetic vs. developed distinction meaningful and useful?
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> Michael A. Gyori
>
> Maui International Language School
>
> www.mauilanguage.com
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Art LaChance <ruhtra.glc at ellijay.com>
> *To:* National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE <
> aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org>
> *Sent:* Tue, May 18, 2010 4:04:57 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [AAACE-NLA] Fight, flight, Angst, and/or pain
>
> I understand completely Susan.  I do not think fight/flight is the singular
> issue and I do believe that there are in fact many genetics that produce
> sometimes identical behaviors in children and adults.  I've worked with that
> group also as a rehabilitation counselor in a vocational rehab setting.  The
> group I'm referring to in my blabber is the group that has been affected by
> and is responding to the fight flight.  If I can reverse the situation and
> the child/adult suddenly ends up "learning" at a normal rate under normal
> conditions ie without intense intervention and interaction - what does that
> say about the educational system that threw off to the side with an
> "official diagnosis" and left them to their own devices ?
>
> Show me the "accommodations" that provide a fourth grader who has fallen
> behind in math by two years and feels/acts totally incompetent.  I, we,
> don't see it here or anywhere else, these kids are falling by the wayside
> and suffering their entire lives because they have absolutely zero
> self-efficacy when it comes to reading or math competency.  The relief for
> all concerned is to label the child and walk away, put them in a daycare
> special ed or simply ignore them and let them falter.
>
>
>
> McGilloway, Susan S. wrote:
> > "So how would the system deal with this situation?  Change the entire
> delivery system to accommodate the oddities ?  Or continue on as designed
> because it's still effective for almost 50%  ? "
> >
> > I don't see it as black or white, either/or. I see it being inclusive to
> > all and meeting each student where he or she is. That is what
> > accommodations provide - assistance for those who need it. The goal of
> > scientific exploration of LDs is to learn something of how they develop,
> > and, hopefully, to find better therapies to assist students.  I think it
> > is simplistic to say that all disorders are related to fight or flight.
> > I mentioned a 15 year old boy who has multiple learning disabilities and
> > mild autism that is due to the fact that his mother did not produce
> > enough amniotic fluid for him to move while in utero.  That certainly
> > does not indicate a fight or flight response.
> >
> > Susan McGilloway
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: aaace-nla-bounces at lists.literacytent.org
> > [mailto:aaace-nla-bounces at lists.literacytent.org] On Behalf Of Art
> > LaChance
> > Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 11:07 AM
> > To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE
> > Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Fight, flight, Angst, and/or pain
> >
> > " After all,  such medicalized diagnoses ended up serving as elixirs to
> some individuals. "
> >
> > Michael,
> >
> > Unfortunately for all concerned, this applies to every system involved;
> education, pharmaceutical, medical, psychological etc.  I don't think it
> >
> > began this way but it for sure ended up here.  Historical cumulative
> Ree-search has identified several, as in many, physical attributes of
> behavior in response to varying situations, but they are all tied to the
> >
> > same source.  Fight/Flight comes in different strengths.  Example: as a
> child - about two days after you smoked your finger in the candle fire and
> raised a black blister, some idiot grabs your hand and moves toward the fire
> again, what would your response be at that point?  Compare that
> >
> > with the adult version if today somebody grabbed your hand and moved
> toward the fire.  Sure - the response would be there but not as
> out-of-control as the child version.  And yes - the MRI's would certainly
> show a rather elaborate response pattern to certain stimuli - IF - the child
> had previously developed the 'innate' response to what it
> >
> > interpreted as a 'threat'.  And then gage the child's response to sour
> ice-cream and see the difference in affect.
> >
> > I've arrived at my understanding, wherever that is, not by reading books
> >
> > or listening to professionals blabber but by over 20 years of hands-on
> experience with multitudes of people, children and adults, who had been
> physically brain injured via car accidents etc, and/or emotionally destroyed
> via subtle experiences connected directly to home or school.
> > The system has told me many many times that the child 'just cannot learn
> >
> > math' therefore we have diagnosed him/her as having a learning
> disability/ math.  Then, an alternative source restores the child/adult's
> self-efficacy and the child learns math at a normal rate via normal
> methodology.......???  Don't get me wrong here, sometimes it's far more
> extensive than just providing a comfortable and understanding atmosphere -
> sometimes it will take session after session for months to unseat the angst
> and restore the 'trust' factor before the
> >
> > child will allow the exposure to the fire.  As long as it doesn't 'burn'
> again.  If it burns?  Back to square one.
> >
> > So how would the system deal with this situation?  Change the entire
> delivery system to accommodate the oddities ?  Or continue on as designed
> because it's still effective for almost 50%  ?
> > Art
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael Gyori wrote:
> >
> >> Greetings Art, Hugo, George, and all,
> >>  I'd like to share some thoughts about pre- & post-NIFL a.k.a. fight or
> >>
> >
> >
> >> flight, and now the newest nomenclature, Angst and pain.  I believe it
> >>
> >
> >
> >> all started with the notion of "noncognitive" or "soft skills," both of
> which sound so antiquated by now...
> >>  Rather recently, discussions were underway on NIFL's LD list
> surrounding ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, fMRIs, and the like.  Some, Hugo and myself
> included, expressed skepticism about these alleged conditions and claims
> that brain scans appeared to confirm their existence. Not surprisingly, I
> was led to understand that the discussions didn't sit well with at least a
> few subscribers. After all,  such medicalized diagnoses ended up serving as
> elixirs to some individuals.  They were led to believe that in fact there
> /was /something innately wrong with them and that it /wasn't /their fault.
> It comes as no surprise that any perceived challenges to those very
> "diagnoses" had a threatening quality. It's difficult, after all, to
> question a sense of relief (even if it might just be learned helplessness).
> Hugo and I agree completely that the role of affect in learning is paramount
> (based on previous on-list and off-list interactions).  Art's and George's
> reasoning would lead me to believe that they do, too.  Discussions about the
> primacy of affect on the LD list was met with considerable affirmation from
> other subscribers, but the discussions appeared to wane around the chicken
> or egg question - i.e., do innate conditions engender negative affect, or
> does negative affect engender acquired conditions (good old nature vs.
> nurture).
> >>  /Fight/ and /flight/ do indeed conjure images of a cornered rabid wolf.
> The adopted German and Yiddish term /Angst/, say among WW II Holocaust
> survivors, can also denote a very powerful feeling. /Pain/ feels a trifle
> gentler, accompanied by feelings of sadness and resignation.  Whatever terms
> we may choose, and often we simply don't have just the right words in some
> languages, the discussion unfolding on the NLA list is a very important one,
> in my opinion.  It has the makings of a paradigm shift in how we view and
> inform the very acts of teaching and
> >>
> >
> >
> >> learning.  Granted, making a new paradigm operationally meaningful and
> >>
> >
> >
> >> transparent can be a source of frustration for practioners who are
> looking for better ways to approach challenges in education here and now
> rather than there and then.
> >>  Michael
> >>
> >> Michael A. Gyori
> >>
> >> Maui International Language School
> >>
> >> www.mauilanguage.com <http://www.mauilanguage.com/>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> AAACE-NLA mailing list: AAACE-NLA at lists.literacytent.org
> >> http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
> >> LiteracyTent: web hosting, news, community and goodies for literacy
> >> http://literacytent.org
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > AAACE-NLA mailing list: AAACE-NLA at lists.literacytent.org
> > http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
> > LiteracyTent: web hosting, news, community and goodies for literacy
> > http://literacytent.org
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> AAACE-NLA mailing list: AAACE-NLA at lists.literacytent.org
> http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
> LiteracyTent: web hosting, news, community and goodies for literacy
> http://literacytent.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AAACE-NLA mailing list: AAACE-NLA at lists.literacytent.org
> http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
> LiteracyTent: web hosting, news, community and goodies for literacy
> http://literacytent.org
>
>

-- 
Genevieve Ray

Volunteer Manager, Turning Pages
AmeriCorps VISTA
Office: 803-240-2441
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.literacytent.org/pipermail/aaace-nla/attachments/20100521/9a0e8899/attachment-0001.html>