[AAACE-NLA] AAACE-NLA Digest, Vol 53, Issue 3

Tue Oct 2 18:30:44 EDT 2007

Andres,

No citations, only my common sense on this one.  But if it is indeed true, as you say, that "the economic benefits of illegal immigration far outweigh the costs" then surely the surplus that we are currently enjoying should be able to pay for any return transportation that would be required. 

Kearney

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Sent: Monday, October 1, 2007 8:50:39 PM
Subject: AAACE-NLA Digest, Vol 53, Issue 3

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  Language and labels and immigration (andresmuro at aol.com)
   2. Re:  Language and labels and immigration (Andrea Wilder)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:06:58 -0400
From: andresmuro at aol.com
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Language and labels and immigration
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Message-ID: <8C9D27DC17A9315-674-44A6 at webmail-da12.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 Kerney wrote:

Paying for their transportation back home would
easily be offset by the savings realized by no longer paying for their
education, health care, language translation services, etc?.

 Do you have any citations that support this claim? All the literature that I have looked indicates that the economic benefits of illegal immigration far outweigh the costs. 

Andres

-----Original Message-----
From: Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Sent: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:09 am
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Language and labels and immigration

Debbie,

?

I copied your last post here in bold, and then added my
comments and answers to your questions. 

?

Sincerely,

?

? Kearney

You and I agree (miracle of mircles) that??the challenge in
"negotiating the tensions" is where the rubber meets the road.??I
believe, however, that even if a "loaded mesage" is accurate, it is
better to "unload" it and in the process it can become more
convincing.??

This exchange has been instructive.??Let's do some more of
it.??I'm going to do my best to avoid loaded language as I continue:

Today, I came across the following, published in the Nov. 05 issue of
Legal??Basics,??a local newsletter published by the SC Bar.

"Many undocumented workers receive their wages through regular payroll
checks from which FICA is withheld thus federal taxes and state taxes are
withheld.??The Social Security Administration reports that $7 billion
is paid to a 'suspense file' when social security numbers don't matchup...many
undocumented workers file their federal and state taxes with the IRS and their
state Department of Revenue every year...according to the IRS, in 2001 530,000
Forms 1040 were filed by taxpayers using the ITIN only issued to taxpayers who
do not qualify for a Social Security card."

Kearney, you state
that the federal government doesn't enforce the immigration laws on the books
now.??At first glance, this is true.??But the part of the
federal government charged with enforcing immigration law does deport illegals
(enforcing the law) when they know about them.??I am referring to
the federal government?s failure to make the borders sufficiently secure. The
border is largely porous. Where the holes have been plugged, illegal crossings
have diminished. 

It is other parts of the federal government (IRS, Social
Security, etc.) who do not enforce the immigration laws because they are not
charged to do so.??Now here we have a list of 530,000 people who are
employed and paying taxes, and presummably have addresses from which to mail a
tax form--yet are undocumented--oh, all right, "illegal".??I
assume you expect the IRS, in this case, to give that list to the INS so all
these people can be deported.??For the betterment of our health,
safety, and sovereignty, I think these departments of the federal government
should communicate and cooperate with each other. If that means more illegal
immigrants get deported, I am fine with that.?
What I am not fine with is the current system which rewards immigration
law breakers (employees and employers) and cheapens citizenship. 

Can we at least agree that such an undertaking would be
impossible to execute???If your standard for the execution of the
undertaking is perfection, then yes, it would be impossible, just like the
enforcement of every law is. But if the standard is great improvement in the way
the law is currently enforced, then no, I do not agree that the task is
impossible. 

At the very least, how would you pay to transport a half
million people?? Paying for their transportation back home would
easily be offset by the savings realized by no longer paying for their
education, health care, language translation services, etc?.This is especially
true when they are caught close to the border.?
But the real issue is prevention. We have no excuse for allowing the
problem to get this huge. Laws that are not enforced encourage more violations.
?Laws that are enforced discourage further violations.? Surely we can think of many examples in many
realms of social interaction. 

Suppose each illegal is expected to pay their own way out
of here.??What if they don't or can't???Where would you
lock up 530,000 people???Even if deportation were possible, can we
agree that the employers of 530,000 people would be left without a labor force
and this would affect many,many others who ARE legal citizens? That would
depend of course on the distribution of these 530,000 among their respective
employers. If they work for 530,000 employers the effect is negligible. But regardless
of their distribution the economic effects are temporary. In a free market,
needs get met, and that includes labor needs. On the other hand, surely you
realize the good effects as well. Imagine the reduced burdens we would
experience regarding ESOL waiting lists, emergency room waiting times, state food
stamp budgets, public school student-to-teacher ratios, strains on education
budgets and counseling services, uninsured drivers, cases of infectious
tuberculosis, etc?.

Here is another case, a true story.?? We have a German adult
learner who was married to a US
career military man, a citizen, for 25 years. All her children, grown now with
children of their own, were born here and live here.?? The couple
divorced.??Her legal status is now in question, because the legality
of her marriage has somehow been questionned (I think the military man was
married before and the dissolution of the first marriage is
unclear.)??This came up when she applied for veterans' benefits as a
military widow. She is presently "undocumented".??(She is
not yet "illegal" because her case has not yet been adjudicated.) She
cannot work, and her children are supporting her.????She is
facing deportation to Germany,
where she knows no one.??

Kearney, do you see this
woman as a lawbreaker who needs to be immediately thrown out of the country? No. Unless she knowingly married a man who she knew
to be still married to another woman, to my knowledge I wouldn?t think she has
broken any law and thus would not subject to deportation. If this is not the
case, then her defense is much weaker. 

The laws themselves are the source of our struggles, since in this case
there is no differentiation between her and someone who sneaked over the Rio
  Grande last night.?I don?t know this
to be fact.?I am not questioning your character here, just your immigration
law expertise (and mine).?

In my humble opinion, that is why we need comprehensive
immigration reform, not just enforcement of the current laws.??This
is also why "securing our borders", (although I agree we need to do a
better job of this)??isn't the whole answer. Debbie, I am not
aware of a raging national debate over what to do about the throngs of
?accidental German bigamists.? The estimated 12 million illegals who currently
reside here do not include such categories and are not the source of our strife
or the impetus for the national debate. 

?

My philosophy on the immigration issue is guided by:

?

1. Respect for the rule of law 

2. Protecting the privileges of US
citizenship

3. Maintaining American sovereignty

?

Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:58:10 -0400
From: Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Language and labels and immigration
To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE
    <aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org>
Message-ID: <1fa64b6b7545a2360fde6484ff78a72e at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Andres--

Do you mean just illegal, or are you putting in the cost/ benefits of 
legal immigrants also?

Andrea

On Oct 1, 2007, at 4:06 PM, andresmuro at aol.com wrote:

> Kerney wrote:
>> Paying for their transportation back home would easily be offset by 
>> the savings realized by no longer paying for their education, health 
>> care, language translation services, etc?.
> Do you have any citations that support this claim? All the literature 
> that I have looked indicates that the economic benefits of illegal 
> immigration far outweigh the costs.
>
>  Andres
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>
>  To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
>  Sent: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:09 am
>  Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Language and labels and immigration
>
> Debbie,
> ?
> I copied your last post here in bold, and then added my comments and 
> answers to your questions.
> ?
> Sincerely,
> ?
> ? Kearney
>
> You and I agree (miracle of mircles) that??the challenge in 
> "negotiating the tensions" is where the rubber meets the road.??I 
> believe, however, that even if a "loaded mesage" is accurate, it is 
> better to "unload" it and in the process it can become more 
> convincing.??
>
>  This exchange has been instructive.??Let's do some more of it.??I'm 
> going to do my best to avoid loaded language as I continue:
>
>  Today, I came across the following, published in the Nov. 05 issue of 
> Legal??Basics,??a local newsletter published by the SC Bar.
>
>  "Many undocumented workers receive their wages through regular 
> payroll checks from which FICA is withheld thus federal taxes and 
> state taxes are withheld.??The Social Security Administration reports 
> that $7 billion is paid to a 'suspense file' when social security 
> numbers don't matchup...many undocumented workers file their federal 
> and state taxes with the IRS and their state Department of Revenue 
> every year...according to the IRS, in 2001 530,000 Forms 1040 were 
> filed by taxpayers using the ITIN only issued to taxpayers who do not 
> qualify for a Social Security card."
>
> Kearney, you state that the federal government doesn't enforce the 
> immigration laws on the books now.??At first glance, this is 
> true.??But the part of the federal government charged with enforcing 
> immigration law does deport illegals (enforcing the law) when they 
> know about them.??I am referring to the federal government?s failure 
> to make the borders sufficiently secure. The border is largely porous. 
> Where the holes have been plugged, illegal crossings have diminished.
> It is other parts of the federal government (IRS, Social Security, 
> etc.) who do not enforce the immigration laws because they are not 
> charged to do so.??Now here we have a list of 530,000 people who are 
> employed and paying taxes, and presummably have addresses from which 
> to mail a tax form--yet are undocumented--oh, all right, "illegal".??I 
> assume you expect the IRS, in this case, to give that list to the INS 
> so all these people can be deported.??For the betterment of our 
> health, safety, and sovereignty, I think these departments of the 
> federal government should communicate and cooperate with each other. 
> If that means more illegal immigrants get deported, I am fine with 
> that.? What I am not fine with is the current system which rewards 
> immigration law breakers (employees and employers) and cheapens 
> citizenship.
> Can we at least agree that such an undertaking would be impossible to 
> execute???If your standard for the execution of the undertaking is 
> perfection, then yes, it would be impossible, just like the 
> enforcement of every law is. But if the standard is great improvement 
> in the way the law is currently enforced, then no, I do not agree that 
> the task is impossible.
> At the very least, how would you pay to transport a half million 
> people?? Paying for their transportation back home would easily be 
> offset by the savings realized by no longer paying for their 
> education, health care, language translation services, etc?.This is 
> especially true when they are caught close to the border.? But the 
> real issue is prevention. We have no excuse for allowing the problem 
> to get this huge. Laws that are not enforced encourage more 
> violations. ?Laws that are enforced discourage further violations.? 
> Surely we can think of many examples in many realms of social 
> interaction.
> Suppose each illegal is expected to pay their own way out of 
> here.??What if they don't or can't???Where would you lock up 530,000 
> people???Even if deportation were possible, can we agree that the 
> employers of 530,000 people would be left without a labor force and 
> this would affect many,many others who ARE legal citizens? That would 
> depend of course on the distribution of these 530,000 among their 
> respective employers. If they work for 530,000 employers the effect is 
> negligible. But regardless of their distribution the economic effects 
> are temporary. In a free market, needs get met, and that includes 
> labor needs. On the other hand, surely you realize the good effects as 
> well. Imagine the reduced burdens we would experience regarding ESOL 
> waiting lists, emergency room waiting times, state food stamp budgets, 
> public school student-to-teacher ratios, strains on education budgets 
> and counseling services, uninsured drivers, cases of infectious 
> tuberculosis, etc?.
>
> Here is another case, a true story.?? We have a German adult learner 
> who was married to a US career military man, a citizen, for 25 years. 
> All her children, grown now with children of their own, were born here 
> and live here.?? The couple divorced.??Her legal status is now in 
> question, because the legality of her marriage has somehow been 
> questionned (I think the military man was married before and the 
> dissolution of the first marriage is unclear.)??This came up when she 
> applied for veterans' benefits as a military widow. She is presently 
> "undocumented".??(She is not yet "illegal" because her case has not 
> yet been adjudicated.) She cannot work, and her children are 
> supporting her.????She is facing deportation to Germany, where she 
> knows no one.??
>
> Kearney, do you see this woman as a lawbreaker who needs to be 
> immediately thrown out of the country? No. Unless she knowingly 
> married a man who she knew to be still married to another woman, to my 
> knowledge I wouldn?t think she has broken any law and thus would not 
> subject to deportation. If this is not the case, then her defense is 
> much weaker.
> The laws themselves are the source of our struggles, since in this 
> case there is no differentiation between her and someone who sneaked 
> over the Rio Grande last night.?I don?t know this to be fact.?I am not 
> questioning your character here, just your immigration law expertise 
> (and mine).?
> In my humble opinion, that is why we need comprehensive immigration 
> reform, not just enforcement of the current laws.??This is also why 
> "securing our borders", (although I agree we need to do a better job 
> of this)??isn't the whole answer. Debbie, I am not aware of a raging 
> national debate over what to do about the throngs of ?accidental 
> German bigamists.? The estimated 12 million illegals who currently 
> reside here do not include such categories and are not the source of 
> our strife or the impetus for the national debate.
> ?
> My philosophy on the immigration issue is guided by:
> ?
> 1. Respect for the rule of law
> 2. Protecting the privileges of US citizenship
> 3. Maintaining American sovereignty
> ?
>
> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user 
> panel and lay it on us.
> _______________________________________________
>
> AAACE-NLA mailing list: AAACE-NLA at lists.literacytent.org
>
> http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
>
> LiteracyTent: web hosting, news, community and goodies for literacy
>
> http://literacytent.org
>
>  Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
> _______________________________________________
> AAACE-NLA mailing list: AAACE-NLA at lists.literacytent.org
> http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
> LiteracyTent: web hosting, news, community and goodies for literacy
> http://literacytent.org
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