[AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult ed
Daphne Greenberg
alcdgg at langate.gsu.edu
Wed May 16 19:27:44 EDT 2007
I would like to add my two cents to the discussion about whether staff should ask for documentation not asked by the program. If we follow Kearney's example of teachers asking our foreign students for documentation, why single only the foreign students out? Should teachers be asking students for documentation that they are meeting with their parole officers? Should teachers be asking fathers for documentation that they are paying their paternity bills? Should teachers be asking students for documentation that they submitted their IRS forms? The list goes on and on. And why stop with students. Should we be asking each other for documentation if we suspect that a peer is violating a law not related to teaching? Teachers taking the law into their own hands and asking for documentation leads us down a slippery slope.
Daphne
>>> "Marie Cora" <marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com> 05/15/07 3:20 PM >>>
I'm no expert in legal, or ethical issues, for that matter. But
shouldn't it be that we start with what is stated in our laws as regards
civil rights before we add the difficult layer of ethics to an already
complex situation? If this is so (and I think that it is), as a program
director, if one of my teachers does things that are against the law
with his or her students, then yes indeed, it would be my duty to take
up that case and see that this teacher has no place in the program. At
least, this is my understanding of the situation - I put myself in a
program director's shoes, having been there for 10 years at one point in
my career. If the program does not require such documentation, then the
staff does not either.
Marie Cora
-----Original Message-----
From: aaace-nla-bounces at lists.literacytent.org
[mailto:aaace-nla-bounces at lists.literacytent.org] On Behalf Of Andrea
Wilder
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:47 PM
To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult ed
Art--
Thanks for the clarification. I am interested in accounting for the heat
that this conversation rises. Over legal/illegal? Or over personal or
informal group views of right or wrong? (ethics) And I should say that
ethics can be shared by more than one person and they may or may not
coincide with legal/illegal. So hypothetically there are 2 systems at
play.
Andrea
On May 15, 2007, at 12:46 PM, Ellison, Art wrote:
Andrea,
I was not attempting to interject ethics into the discussion. I was
attempting to make a legal case that an adult education teacher in a
program that has enrolled students for services has no right to decide,
based upon his/her personal beliefs, which of those students should be
allowed into his/her classroom. Art
From: aaace-nla-bounces at lists.literacytent.org
[mailto:aaace-nla-bounces at lists.literacytent.org] On Behalf Of Andrea
Wilder
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 11:45 AM
To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult ed
Andres,
A couple of questions about this simple problem.
1. A crime is an act that violates a political, religious, or moral
command.....protecting the interests of the state (Wikepedia).
2. Command = law
3. So illegal immigration is not unlawful? Please clarify what you are
saying.
So what states do things differently? Arizona, apparently. What do they
do differently, and what do other states do differently?
Ethics = personal sense of right/wrong. This may or may not coincide
with legal definitions of right and wrong. When Art intervened a couple
of emails ago, I felt he was interjecting ethics into the conversation,
because he was angry, and anger is personal.
Andrea
On May 15, 2007, at 9:03 AM, andresmuro at aol.com wrote:
Andrea:
It is very simple. In most things that we do, we don't ask for
documentation about anything. In certain places, we ask for certain
documentation as required by the law. You simply stick to that. If you
are an employer, you must ask for SS#. If you are a cop stopping someone
for a speeding ticket, you ask for driver's license, proof of insurance,
vehicle registration, etc. Not even cops can ask for immigration status.
It is illegal. If you are a teacher, you ask for whatever the school
dictates that you ask students that go into your classroom. It may be a
referral slip from the registrar, or maybe nothing. If you are in a
hospital, you ask whatever the hospital policy dictates. They usually
want health insurance, or the like. If it is an emergency, hospitals
must treat patients with or w/o insurance. However, people shouldn't go
around asking for proof of immigration status. That is the role of ICE
(immigration and customs enforcement). By the way, in this country,
entering the US illegally is not even a crime. While it is a violation
of the law, it is not an arrestable crime. It is the jurisdiction of ICE
to handle immigration issues.
We don't go around asking everyone if they have a driver's license
because we see them driving. Even if we suspect that they may not have
one, we don't take that responsibility. We don't go around asking
employers to show us that they have W2 forms for every employee that
works with them. You don't ask your friends to show you the W2 for the
lady that they hired to babysit or clean their homes.
This 'asking about immigration status thing' is some sort of new
nonsense. You spent your life w/o worrying about this. Now, all of a
sudden we are worrying about undocumented immigrants because Lou Dobbs
tells us so. If we have extra time and we need something to do for the
good of society, we ought to go to a soup kitchen and feed the poor,
volunteer our spare time with the elderly, fix bicycles for children or
spend time at the shelter for battered women. Otherwise, go running, go
to the gym, have more sex, or read a book.
Now, if you see that someone may be violating a law and it really
bothers you, you can call the proper authorities. It is not really that
complicated.
Andres
Please take a look at my artwork: www.geocities.com/andresmuro/art.html
-----Original Message-----
From: andreawilder at comcast.net
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Sent: Mon, 14 May 2007 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult ed
All:
Would someone please clarify this issue for me? The legal one. This
seems to me to be at the heart of this discussion: who is legal, who is
not, and under what circumstances. So in most states it is illegal to
ask for documentation? But when people cross borders without
documentation, that is illegal. Busnesses? Hospitals and schools?Taxes?
Anybody got any clarity on ALL these issues? Can we come up with a
statement that clarifies these issues as to where the law is NOW in
these multiple circumstances?
Andrea
On May 14, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Ellison, Art wrote:
>
> To the list,
>
> I generally try to stay out of these discussions since there are >
many people on this list who share my views, but are much more >
articulate than I am on many issues. However, the message below raises >
the interesting issue of how far a teacher in an adult education >
program should go as the enforcer of his/her own political philosophy. >
In the absence of a law such as the one in Arizona and in a program >
that has no legal right to screen students for immigrant status or >
citizenship, an individual teacher has no right to ask for >
documentation on this issue from students. This behavior on the part >
of the teacher should be grounds for dismissal from the program.
> Art Ellison, NH Department of Education
>
>
> From: aaace-nla-bounces at lists.literacytent.org >
[mailto:aaace-nla-bounces at lists.literacytent.org] On Behalf Of Kearney >
Lykins
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 7:51 AM
> To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
> Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult ed
>
>
> John,
>
> How are educators who would provide free or nearly free ESOL services
> to known illegal aliens in a substantially different ethical position
> than the employers who knowingly hire the same?
>
> I don't know that you are as complicit as the coyote, but yes, you >
and anyone else who who turns a blind eye to illegal activity is >
certainly contributing to creating an illegal-friendly environment. I >
don't find it at all disingenuous or conflicting to be an adult ESOL >
educator and a patriot. In fact, love of my country and its culture is >
one of the biggest motivators for me to teach ESOL to immigrants. But >
I am not going to help a single illegal immigrant if I can help it. I >
have suspected several of my previous students were here illegally. >
Even though I know such things are easily faked, I asked several to >
show me their SSAN cards. One student, who had a very good attendance >
record, and with whom I had developed great rapport, immediately >
stopped coming to class.
>
> Loving one's country doesn't make one a fascist or a nativist. >
Wanting to enforce immigration laws that recognize our border, that >
protect our culture and national security, and that allow for the >
continued viability of our health services, education programs, social >
services, state budgets, etc. doesn't equate to hating brown people.
>
>
> Kearney Lykins
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>
> From: "aaace-nla-request at lists.literacytent.org" >
<aaace-nla-request at lists.literacytent.org>
> To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:21:20 AM
> Subject: AAACE-NLA Digest, Vol 48, Issue 42
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. immigration and adult education (Holst, John D.)
> 2. Re: A primer on immigration (andresmuro at aol.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 13:44:58 -0500
> From: "Holst, John D." <JDHOLST at stthomas.edu>
> Subject: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult education
> To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
> Message-ID:
> <2EFE80177AFF964D903D1F1E0CC5E767029F1D7D at UST-EXCH8.stthomas.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I have been following with interest the debate on immigration and >
have the
> following comments to add to the discussion.
>
>
>
> Trying to claim that the national discussion on immigration should >
center on
> the narrow issue of the legality or illegality of crossing the border
> is
> fruitless and leads, as this discussion has shown, to, on the one >
hand,
> abstract appeals to dictionary definitions, etymological origins of >
words,
> and moral principles, and, on the other, calls for the mass detention
> and
> removal of large sectors of a nation's population not seen since the >
days,
> and with similar ideological foundations, of European fascism.
>
>
>
> Claiming this is a narrow legal issue, is like saying the national >
debate on
> abortion is merely about a medical procedure. It really leads nowhere
> because it detaches the issue from its foundations in the historical,
> economic and social development of the nation.
>
>
>
> It also strikes me as disingenuous if not outright hypocritical for >
adult
> educators to take anti-immigration stances, and to be so >
sanctimoniously
> outraged by 'these' people's "criminal" act of crossing borders. I >
spent
> about 7 years in the ABE classroom. During these years, most of my >
work was
> with "illegal" immigrants. In fact, the entire ABE program in >
Chicago,
> funded based on attendance, depended on the mass participation of >
"illegal"
> immigrants. All of our jobs, whether we were in the ESL or the GED
> classroom, depended on the "criminality" of immigration. The ABE >
classroom,
> overflowing with "illegals" was my first entry into education. Both
> literally and figuratively "illegal" immigrants put food on my >
table. Now
> as a professor of education, I have to honestly admit that my whole >
career
> is founded on this original sin. I can't help but think that from the
> narrow legalistic framing of the immigration debate, my entire career
> is
> really fraudulent and illegal. How can I as someone who has >
benefited so
> much from the field of ABE, now call for the confinement and/or >
deportation
> of those upon which I built a whole career? Am I not as complicit as
> the
> coyote, himself? Are not our programs?
>
>
>
> John Holst
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 15:35:06 -0400
> From: andresmuro at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] A primer on immigration
> To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
> Message-ID: <8C962E3C77F3FE7-1D18-199D at WEBMAIL-MC17.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Regarding educators, the policies that they should follow are the >
ones of the school, funding, etc.
> they really have no choice. Teachers are not immigration officers, >
so, they shouldn't be asked to enforce immigration policy. In our >
program we serve the students that come. the funding pretty much >
dictates who we can serve. Our adult education ESL funding is for >
people who want to learn English. Our GED funding is for people who >
want to get a GED. Our migrant education funding is for people >
involved in agricultural work. Our health education funds are to >
provide health literacy classes and so on.
>
> Schools should serve people that want to learn, provided that they >
teach what people are asking for. It should be pretty straight >
forward.
>
> Regarding national or global immigration policy, I cannot speak of >
one definite policy. The immigration issues are the result of global >
economic issues of poverty, displacement, inequality, etc. Policies >
will not prevent immigration issues as long as there are issues of >
poverty, inequality, etc. People will talk about immigration policy >
for a while. In a couple of years, after the next election, and a >
couple of Paris Hilton type scandals, a few sports tournaments, etc >
people will have forgotten that we have an immigration issue. We will >
continue to co-exist with pretty much the same immigrants and get >
along fine. At some point, a few years later, another Lou Dobbs will >
come along and make immigrants the scapegoats for the all problem of >
the time.
>
> My personal policy is to treat people as people. I try not to make >
distinctions about nationality, race, gender, class, sexual >
preference, religion.
>
> Andres
>
>
>
>
> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
> Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at >
Yahoo! Games.
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