[AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult ed
Andrea Wilder
andreawilder at comcast.net
Tue May 15 13:54:26 EDT 2007
Andres
Isn't "crime" the larger category, while misdemeanor and felony are
subcategories? Just trying to get the terms straight.
Andrea
On May 15, 2007, at 1:27 PM, andresmuro at aol.com wrote:
> Ok, under the law, various illegal activities fall under various
> categories based on the deemed importance, risk, etc. There are
> crimes, misdemeanors, and offences. For example, killing someone or
> robbing a bank are crimes. Shoplifting is a misdemeanor. Speeding, not
> fully stopping at a stop sign, jay walking and entering the US w/o
> documents are minor offences that don't result in incarceration.
> Undocumented entry is a federal offence that may result in detention
> and deportation depending on circumstances. However, under the law, it
> is not considered a crime.
>
> Now, Arizona's politicians are merely grandstanding. They are passing
> unenforceable laws that in many cases violate federal laws. Checking
> for someone legal's status is a complicated procedure and public
> service employees do not have the training, the knowledge and the
> desire to enforce it.
>
> To begin with, there are thousand of people that were born and raised
> here that don't have documentation. Are they going to be denyied
> service when they go to the hospital in the middle of the night. There
> are thousands of people that are legally residing here and don't have
> anything beyond a case number that allows them to reside here. Are
> public employees going to be trained to check immigration case
> numbers?
>
> There are also a myriad of permits, passes, visas, and supporting
> documents that allow people to enter the united states and visit, or
> reside for determinate or indeterminate amounts of time. Visas are
> coded with letters and numbers to determine their use including
> working, going to school, visiting, conducting business, accompanying
> someone else, etc. They are usually accompanied by other legal
> documents with codes that give them their validity and depend on a
> variety of things. People from certain countries do not need visas or
> permits to enter the US. Thousands have ss cards and driver licenses
> or state ids and are illegally residing in the US. Legal and illegal
> immigrants come in all colors, speak many languages, have different
> eye shapes, and belong to different social classes.
>
> Most of us have SS cards and state ids and that is it. These are not
> proof of legal residence under the law. You can get these with foreign
> documents under many circumstances. The circumstances that allow
> people to obtain these ids may pass but people continue to have them.
> so technically, if we want to prove legal residences, we need other
> documents that many don't have. Would you like to be asked for a
> passport, birth certificate, or other documentation next time you go
> to the hospital, enroll in a class, etc, etc?
>
> So, ultimately, to determine the status of a person you need an
> office dedicated to this, a data base, security clearance to access
> federal records, lots of training and in many cases a lot of time to
> determine the legal status of a person. Legal residence is federally
> regulated, meaning that the feds will have to train local public
> employees on how to do their jobs. Either that, or they would have to
> open federal offices in every community to regulate documentation.
> Moreover, everyone will have to carry proof of legal residence. So, it
> is really an unenforceable thing.
>
> Politicians in AZ know this and they don't care. They have a few rich
> patrons who want a law so they passed one knowing that it is
> unenforceable.
>
> Andres
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please take a look at my artwork: www.geocities.com/andresmuro/art.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: andreawilder at comcast.net
> To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
> Sent: Tue, 15 May 2007 9:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult ed
>
> Andres,
>
> A couple of questions about this simple problem.
>
> 1. A crime is an act that violates a political, religious, or moral
> command.....protecting the interests of the state (Wikepedia).
> 2. Command = law
> 3. So illegal immigration is not unlawful? Please clarify what you
> are saying.
>
> So what states do things differently? Arizona, apparently. What do
> they do differently, and what do other states do differently?
>
> Ethics = personal sense of right/wrong. This may or may not coincide
> with legal definitions of right and wrong. When Art intervened a
> couple of emails ago, I felt he was interjecting ethics into the
> conversation, because he was angry, and anger is personal.
>
> Andrea
>
>
> On May 15, 2007, at 9:03 AM, andresmuro at aol.com wrote:
>
> > Andrea:
> >
> > It is very simple. In most things that we do, we don't ask for >
> documentation about anything. In certain places, we ask for certain >
> documentation as required by the law. You simply stick to that. If you
> > are an employer, you must ask for SS#. If you are a cop stopping >
> someone for a speeding ticket, you ask for driver's license, proof of
> > insurance, vehicle registration, etc. Not even cops can ask for >
> immigration status. It is illegal. If you are a teacher, you ask for >
> whatever the school dictates that you ask students that go into your >
> classroom. It may be a referral slip from the registrar, or maybe >
> nothing. If you are in a hospital, you ask whatever the hospital >
> policy dictates. They usually want health insurance, or the like. If >
> it is an emergency, hospitals must treat patients with or w/o >
> insurance. However, people shouldn't go around asking for proof of >
> immigration status. That is the role of ICE (immigration and customs >
> enforcement). By the way, in this country, entering the US illegally >
> is not even a crime. While it is a violation of the law, it is not an
> > arrestable crime. It is the jurisdiction of ICE to handle
> immigration > issues.
> >
> > We don't go around asking everyone if they have a driver's license
> > because we see them driving. Even if we suspect that they may not
> have > one, we don't take that responsibility. We don't go around
> asking > employers to show us that they have W2 forms for every
> employee that > works with them. You don't ask your friends to show
> you the W2 for the > lady that they hired to babysit or clean their
> homes.
> >
> > This 'asking about immigration status thing' is some sort of new >
> nonsense. You spent your life w/o worrying about this. Now, all of a >
> sudden we are worrying about undocumented immigrants because Lou Dobbs
> > tells us so. If we have extra time and we need something to do for
> the > good of society, we ought to go to a soup kitchen and feed the
> poor, > volunteer our spare time with the elderly, fix bicycles for
> children > or spend time at the shelter for battered women. Otherwise,
> go > running, go to the gym, have more sex, or read a book.
> >
> > Now, if you see that someone may be violating a law and it really >
> bothers you, you can call the proper authorities. It is not really >
> that complicated.
> >
> > Andres
> >
> >
> > Please take a look at my artwork:
> www.geocities.com/andresmuro/art.html
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: andreawilder at comcast.net
> > To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
> > Sent: Mon, 14 May 2007 2:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult ed
> >
> > All:
> >
> > Would someone please clarify this issue for me? The legal one. This
> > seems to me to be at the heart of this discussion: who is legal, who
> > is not, and under what circumstances. So in most states it is
> illegal > to ask for documentation? But when people cross borders
> without > documentation, that is illegal. Busnesses? Hospitals and >
> schools?Taxes? Anybody got any clarity on ALL these issues? Can we >
> come up with a statement that clarifies these issues as to where the >
> law is NOW in these multiple circumstances?
> >
> > Andrea
> >
> > On May 14, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Ellison, Art wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > To the list,
> > >
> > > I generally try to stay out of these discussions since there
> are > > many people on this list who share my views, but are much more
> > > articulate than I am on many issues. However, the message below
> raises > > the interesting issue of how far a teacher in an adult
> education > > program should go as the enforcer of his/her own
> political philosophy. > > In the absence of a law such as the one in
> Arizona and in a program > > that has no legal right to screen
> students for immigrant status or > > citizenship, an individual
> teacher has no right to ask for > > documentation on this issue from
> students. This behavior on the part > > of the teacher should be
> grounds for dismissal from the program.
> > > Art Ellison, NH Department of Education
> > >
> > >
> > > From: aaace-nla-bounces at lists.literacytent.org > >
> [mailto:aaace-nla-bounces at lists.literacytent.org] On Behalf Of Kearney
> > > Lykins
> > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 7:51 AM
> > > To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
> > > Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult ed
> > >
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > How are educators who would provide free or nearly free ESOL >
> services > to known illegal aliens in a substantially different >
> ethical position > than the employers who knowingly hire the same?
> > >
> > > I don't know that you are as complicit as the coyote, but yes,
> you > > and anyone else who who turns a blind eye to illegal activity
> is > > certainly contributing to creating an illegal-friendly
> environment. I > > don't find it at all disingenuous or conflicting to
> be an adult ESOL > > educator and a patriot. In fact, love of my
> country and its culture > is > one of the biggest motivators for me to
> teach ESOL to immigrants. > But > I am not going to help a single
> illegal immigrant if I can help > it. I > have suspected several of my
> previous students were here > illegally. > Even though I know such
> things are easily faked, I asked > several to > show me their SSAN
> cards. One student, who had a very > good attendance > record, and
> with whom I had developed great rapport, > immediately > stopped
> coming to class.
> > >
> > > Loving one's country doesn't make one a fascist or a nativist. >
> > Wanting to enforce immigration laws that recognize our border, that
> > > protect our culture and national security, and that allow for the
> > > continued viability of our health services, education programs,
> social > > services, state budgets, etc. doesn't equate to hating
> brown > people.
> > >
> > >
> > > Kearney Lykins
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > >
> > > From: "aaace-nla-request at lists.literacytent.org" > >
> <aaace-nla-request at lists.literacytent.org>
> > > To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
> > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:21:20 AM
> > > Subject: AAACE-NLA Digest, Vol 48, Issue 42
> > > Send AAACE-NLA mailing list submissions to
> > > aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
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> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. immigration and adult education (Holst, John D.)
> > > 2. Re: A primer on immigration (andresmuro at aol.com)
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 13:44:58 -0500
> > > From: "Holst, John D." <JDHOLST at stthomas.edu>
> > > Subject: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult education
> > > To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
> > > Message-ID:
> > > >
> <2EFE80177AFF964D903D1F1E0CC5E767029F1D7D at UST-
> EXCH8.stthomas.edu>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > >
> > > I have been following with interest the debate on immigration and
> > > have the
> > > following comments to add to the discussion.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Trying to claim that the national discussion on immigration
> should > > center on
> > > the narrow issue of the legality or illegality of crossing the >
> border > is
> > > fruitless and leads, as this discussion has shown, to, on the one
> > > hand,
> > > abstract appeals to dictionary definitions, etymological origins
> of > > words,
> > > and moral principles, and, on the other, calls for the mass >
> detention > and
> > > removal of large sectors of a nation's population not seen since
> > the > days,
> > > and with similar ideological foundations, of European fascism.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Claiming this is a narrow legal issue, is like saying the
> national > > debate on
> > > abortion is merely about a medical procedure. It really leads >
> nowhere
> > > because it detaches the issue from its foundations in the >
> historical,
> > > economic and social development of the nation.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It also strikes me as disingenuous if not outright hypocritical
> for > > adult
> > > educators to take anti-immigration stances, and to be so > >
> sanctimoniously
> > > outraged by 'these' people's "criminal" act of crossing
> borders. I > > spent
> > > about 7 years in the ABE classroom. During these years, most of
> my > > work was
> > > with "illegal" immigrants. In fact, the entire ABE program in >
> > Chicago,
> > > funded based on attendance, depended on the mass participation of
> > > "illegal"
> > > immigrants. All of our jobs, whether we were in the ESL or the
> GED
> > > classroom, depended on the "criminality" of immigration. The ABE
> > > classroom,
> > > overflowing with "illegals" was my first entry into >
> education. Both
> > > literally and figuratively "illegal" immigrants put food on my >
> > table. Now
> > > as a professor of education, I have to honestly admit that my
> whole > > career
> > > is founded on this original sin. I can't help but think that
> from > the
> > > narrow legalistic framing of the immigration debate, my entire >
> career > is
> > > really fraudulent and illegal. How can I as someone who has > >
> benefited so
> > > much from the field of ABE, now call for the confinement and/or >
> > deportation
> > > of those upon which I built a whole career? Am I not as
> complicit > as > the
> > > coyote, himself? Are not our programs?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John Holst
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 15:35:06 -0400
> > > From: andresmuro at aol.com
> > > Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] A primer on immigration
> > > To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
> > > Message-ID:
> <8C962E3C77F3FE7-1D18-199D at WEBMAIL-MC17.sysops.aol.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >
> > > Regarding educators, the policies that they should follow are the
> > > ones of the school, funding, etc.
> > > they really have no choice. Teachers are not immigration
> officers, > > so, they shouldn't be asked to enforce immigration
> policy. In our > > program we serve the students that come. the
> funding pretty much > > dictates who we can serve. Our adult education
> ESL funding is for > > people who want to learn English. Our GED
> funding is for people who > > want to get a GED. Our migrant education
> funding is for people > > involved in agricultural work. Our health
> education funds are to > > provide health literacy classes and so
> on.
> > >
> > > Schools should serve people that want to learn, provided that
> they > > teach what people are asking for. It should be pretty
> straight > > forward.
> > >
> > > Regarding national or global immigration policy, I cannot speak
> of > > one definite policy. The immigration issues are the result of
> global > > economic issues of poverty, displacement, inequality, etc.
> Policies > > will not prevent immigration issues as long as there are
> issues of > > poverty, inequality, etc. People will talk about
> immigration policy > > for a while. In a couple of years, after the
> next election, and a > > couple of Paris Hilton type scandals, a few
> sports tournaments, etc > > people will have forgotten that we have an
> immigration issue. We will > > continue to co-exist with pretty much
> the same immigrants and get > > along fine. At some point, a few years
> later, another Lou Dobbs will > > come along and make immigrants the
> scapegoats for the all problem of > > the time.
> > >
> > > My personal policy is to treat people as people. I try not to
> make > > distinctions about nationality, race, gender, class, sexual >
> > preference, religion.
> > >
> > > Andres
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
> > > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at
> > > Yahoo! Games.
> > > _______________________________________________
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