[AAACE-NLA] AAACE-NLA Digest, Vol 48, Issue 45
andresmuro@aol.com
andresmuro at aol.com
Tue May 15 09:29:59 EDT 2007
Kearney:
Regarding the high quality of social services, the only one that is available is schooling. By law, public schools are not allowed to ask for immigration status. Undocumented immigrants are not entitled to any other form of welfare. They do use the emergency room when they get sick costing the tax payers a lot of money because access to low cost health clinics for the poor are limited or non-existent.
Regarding the issue of employer vs employee responsibility, in the case of the undocumented, I feel that the ethics should fall with the employers. They have all the power. The undocumented are usually very poor, undereducated and powerless under the law. Employers of the undocumented range from middle class individuals to huge multinational corporations with tremendous power over our everyday lives.
To quote spiderman's aunt "with great power comes great responsibility". I am sure that someone else famous also said this. My point is that to me the ethical responsibility falls on those with the economic resources, the education and the power. Access to employment fall with the employer not the employee. So, yes, to me personally, the ethical obligation is with the employer. I do not consider unethical for an undocumented immigrant to look for work in the US. In fact, to me personally, looking for work is a very ethical thing. I consider it unethical for someone to pay pathetic wages to the undocumented, and to create an environment of fear for those that come and work. That is my personal ethic. I also don't consider it ethical to eat salads, veggies, beef, chicken, pork, canned good and drink orange juice and wine and at the same time complain about the undocumented. Again, this is my personal ethic
Andres
Please take a look at my artwork: www.geocities.com/andresmuro/art.html
-----Original Message-----
From: kearney_lykins at yahoo.com
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Sent: Mon, 14 May 2007 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] AAACE-NLA Digest, Vol 48, Issue 45
Andres,
I concur with you that legally, the positions of the employer and the education provider are not the same. The reasons you give support that. But in my post to John I was attempting to speak to ethics, not legality. Many have made the point that employers, not employees should be the focus of our concern because employers are the giant magnets, in essence pulling illegal immigrants across the border. Certainly, this dynamic is real. Just as real are the multitude of very high quality social services that are made available to just about anyone who shows up. Unfettered access to public K-12 and adult education systems are part of the attraction package. Hence my concern about the ethics of it all.
Kearney
----- Original Message ----
From: "aaace-nla-request at lists.literacytent.org" <aaace-nla-request at lists.literacytent.org>
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:32:28 PM
Subject: AAACE-NLA Digest, Vol 48, Issue 45
Send AAACE-NLA mailing list submissions to
aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
aaace-nla-request at lists.literacytent.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
aaace-nla-owner at lists.literacytent.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of AAACE-NLA digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: immigration and adult ed (andresmuro at aol.com)
2. Immigration and adult ed (Andrea Wilder)
3. Re: immigration and adult ed (andresmuro at aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:56:22 -0400
From: andresmuro at aol.com
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult ed
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Message-ID: <8C964578DB5765E-7E8-7B3 at webmail-md02.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Kearny:
Actually it is certainly not the same thing. To employ someone, you have to follow certain rules. They include asking for ID and SS#, reporting your hiring to the IRS, paying minmum wage, etc, etc. Moreover, knowingly employing and undocumented person is an offence punishable by fines, etc, etc.
Providing instruction to undocumented students is not illegal activity. In fact, by law, it is illegal to deny k-12 education to people documented or undocumented according to Plyer vs DOE 1982 ruling. So, public K-12 entities are not allowed to ask for immigration status.
While it is debatable if adults fall within Plyer vs DOE, the funding that you get dictates what you can do. Who you can serve is dictated by the funding source which tells you who you may or may not serve. As educators, we are not allowed to engage in policing for immigration status. That is the role of the ICE. Our role is to provide instruction to those that come into our classes. If we are involved in outreach and recruitment, we are suppossed to recruit those that the funding is intended to serve. If you decide that you will not serve undocumented and the funding doesn't tell you so, you are breaking the law.
So, by law, hiring an undocumented person is illegal. Providing instruction to an undocumented person is not illegal.
Andres
Please take a look at my artwork: www.geocities.com/andresmuro/art.html
-----Original Message-----
From: kearney_lykins at yahoo.com
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Sent: Mon, 14 May 2007 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult ed
John,
How are educators who would provide free or nearly free ESOL services to known illegal aliens in a substantially different ethical position than the employers who knowingly hire the same?
I don't know that you are as complicit as the coyote, but yes, you and anyone else who who turns a blind eye to illegal activity is certainly contributing to creating an illegal-friendly environment. I don't find it at all disingenuous or conflicting to be an adult ESOL educator and a patriot. In fact, love of my country and its culture is one of the biggest motivators for me to teach ESOL to immigrants. But I am not going to help a single illegal immigrant if I can help it. I have suspected several of my previous students were here illegally. Even though I know such things are easily faked, I asked several to show me their SSAN cards. One student, who had a very good attendance record, and with whom I had developed great rapport, immediately stopped coming to class.
Loving one's country doesn't make one a fascist or a nativist. Wanting to enforce immigration laws that recognize our border, that protect our culture and national security, and that allow for the continued viability of our health services, education programs, social services, state budgets, etc. doesn't equate to hating brown people.
Kearney Lykins
----- Original Message ----
From: "aaace-nla-request at lists.literacytent.org" <aaace-nla-request at lists.literacytent.org>
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:21:20 AM
Subject: AAACE-NLA Digest, Vol 48, Issue 42
Send AAACE-NLA mailing list submissions to
aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
aaace-nla-request at lists.literacytent.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
aaace-nla-owner at lists.literacytent.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of AAACE-NLA digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. immigration and adult education (Holst, John D.)
2. Re: A primer on immigration (andresmuro at aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 13:44:58 -0500
From: "Holst, John D." <JDHOLST at stthomas.edu>
Subject: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult education
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Message-ID:
<2EFE80177AFF964D903D1F1E0CC5E767029F1D7D at UST-EXCH8.stthomas.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I have been following with interest the debate on immigration and have the
following comments to add to the discussion.
Trying to claim that the national discussion on immigration should center on
the narrow issue of the legality or illegality of crossing the border is
fruitless and leads, as this discussion has shown, to, on the one hand,
abstract appeals to dictionary definitions, etymological origins of words,
and moral principles, and, on the other, calls for the mass detention and
removal of large sectors of a nation's population not seen since the days,
and with similar ideological foundations, of European fascism.
Claiming this is a narrow legal issue, is like saying the national debate on
abortion is merely about a medical procedure. It really leads nowhere
because it detaches the issue from its foundations in the historical,
economic and social development of the nation.
It also strikes me as disingenuous if not outright hypocritical for adult
educators to take anti-immigration stances, and to be so sanctimoniously
outraged by 'these' people's "criminal" act of crossing borders. I spent
about 7 years in the ABE classroom. During these years, most of my work was
with "illegal" immigrants. In fact, the entire ABE program in Chicago,
funded based on attendance, depended on the mass participation of "illegal"
immigrants. All of our jobs, whether we were in the ESL or the GED
classroom, depended on the "criminality" of immigration. The ABE classroom,
overflowing with "illegals" was my first entry into education. Both
literally and figuratively "illegal" immigrants put food on my table. Now
as a professor of education, I have to honestly admit that my whole career
is founded on this original sin. I can't help but think that from the
narrow legalistic framing of the immigration debate, my entire career is
really fraudulent and illegal. How can I as someone who has benefited so
much from the field of ABE, now call for the confinement and/or deportation
of those upon which I built a whole career? Am I not as complicit as the
coyote, himself? Are not our programs?
John Holst
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 15:35:06 -0400
From: andresmuro at aol.com
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] A primer on immigration
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Message-ID: <8C962E3C77F3FE7-1D18-199D at WEBMAIL-MC17.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Regarding educators, the policies that they should follow are the ones of the school, funding, etc.
they really have no choice. Teachers are not immigration officers, so, they shouldn't be asked to enforce immigration policy. In our program we serve the students that come. the funding pretty much dictates who we can serve. Our adult education ESL funding is for people who want to learn English. Our GED funding is for people who want to get a GED. Our migrant education funding is for people involved in agricultural work. Our health education funds are to provide health literacy classes and so on.
Schools should serve people that want to learn, provided that they teach what people are asking for. It should be pretty straight forward.
Regarding national or global immigration policy, I cannot speak of one definite policy. The immigration issues are the result of global economic issues of poverty, displacement, inequality, etc. Policies will not prevent immigration issues as long as there are issues of poverty, inequality, etc. People will talk about immigration policy for a while. In a couple of years, after the next election, and a couple of Paris Hilton type scandals, a few sports tournaments, etc people will have forgotten that we have an immigration issue. We will continue to co-exist with pretty much the same immigrants and get along fine. At some point, a few years later, another Lou Dobbs will come along and make immigrants the scapegoats for the all problem of the time.
My personal policy is to treat people as people. I try not to make distinctions about nationality, race, gender, class, sexual preference, religion.
Andres
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. _______________________________________________
AAACE-NLA mailing list: AAACE-NLA at lists.literacytent.org
http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
LiteracyTent: web hosting, news, community and goodies for literacy
http://literacytent.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.literacytent.org/pipermail/aaace-nla/attachments/20070514/72c458b2/attachment-0001.html
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 12:00:43 -0400
From: Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net>
Subject: [AAACE-NLA] Immigration and adult ed
To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE
<aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org>
Message-ID: <3e570011e484b4f53d0a9666644ad08d at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Kearney,
So essentially you are saying this is a pocket book issue also for
adult educators.
Andrea
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 12:09:19 -0400
From: andresmuro at aol.com
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult ed
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Message-ID: <8C964595CACBF11-7E8-8CF at webmail-md02.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Kearny:
I am not sure where you teach or who funds you. However, asking for your students SS cards may be against the law. I am not sure if your supervisors know this. If they did, they may tell you that you are not allowed to do this. If your funding does not stipulate that you have to ask for SS cards and you do this, then, you may lose your funds. The reason there is immigraton enforcement, police, sheriff, etc, is so that citizens do not engage in policing. If you feel that there is illegal activity going on, your obligation is to contact the proper authorities and let them handle it. I hope that you are not getting ABE funds and asking your students for SS numbers. This is a big legal no no.
Andres
Please take a look at my artwork: www.geocities.com/andresmuro/art.html
-----Original Message-----
From: kearney_lykins at yahoo.com
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Sent: Mon, 14 May 2007 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult ed
John,
How are educators who would provide free or nearly free ESOL services to known illegal aliens in a substantially different ethical position than the employers who knowingly hire the same?
I don't know that you are as complicit as the coyote, but yes, you and anyone else who who turns a blind eye to illegal activity is certainly contributing to creating an illegal-friendly environment. I don't find it at all disingenuous or conflicting to be an adult ESOL educator and a patriot. In fact, love of my country and its culture is one of the biggest motivators for me to teach ESOL to immigrants. But I am not going to help a single illegal immigrant if I can help it. I have suspected several of my previous students were here illegally. Even though I know such things are easily faked, I asked several to show me their SSAN cards. One student, who had a very good attendance record, and with whom I had developed great rapport, immediately stopped coming to class.
Loving one's country doesn't make one a fascist or a nativist. Wanting to enforce immigration laws that recognize our border, that protect our culture and national security, and that allow for the continued viability of our health services, education programs, social services, state budgets, etc. doesn't equate to hating brown people.
Kearney Lykins
----- Original Message ----
From: "aaace-nla-request at lists.literacytent.org" <aaace-nla-request at lists.literacytent.org>
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:21:20 AM
Subject: AAACE-NLA Digest, Vol 48, Issue 42
Send AAACE-NLA mailing list submissions to
aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
aaace-nla-request at lists.literacytent.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
aaace-nla-owner at lists.literacytent.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of AAACE-NLA digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. immigration and adult education (Holst, John D.)
2. Re: A primer on immigration (andresmuro at aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 13:44:58 -0500
From: "Holst, John D." <JDHOLST at stthomas.edu>
Subject: [AAACE-NLA] immigration and adult education
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Message-ID:
<2EFE80177AFF964D903D1F1E0CC5E767029F1D7D at UST-EXCH8.stthomas.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I have been following with interest the debate on immigration and have the
following comments to add to the discussion.
Trying to claim that the national discussion on immigration should center on
the narrow issue of the legality or illegality of crossing the border is
fruitless and leads, as this discussion has shown, to, on the one hand,
abstract appeals to dictionary definitions, etymological origins of words,
and moral principles, and, on the other, calls for the mass detention and
removal of large sectors of a nation's population not seen since the days,
and with similar ideological foundations, of European fascism.
Claiming this is a narrow legal issue, is like saying the national debate on
abortion is merely about a medical procedure. It really leads nowhere
because it detaches the issue from its foundations in the historical,
economic and social development of the nation.
It also strikes me as disingenuous if not outright hypocritical for adult
educators to take anti-immigration stances, and to be so sanctimoniously
outraged by 'these' people's "criminal" act of crossing borders. I spent
about 7 years in the ABE classroom. During these years, most of my work was
with "illegal" immigrants. In fact, the entire ABE program in Chicago,
funded based on attendance, depended on the mass participation of "illegal"
immigrants. All of our jobs, whether we were in the ESL or the GED
classroom, depended on the "criminality" of immigration. The ABE classroom,
overflowing with "illegals" was my first entry into education. Both
literally and figuratively "illegal" immigrants put food on my table. Now
as a professor of education, I have to honestly admit that my whole career
is founded on this original sin. I can't help but think that from the
narrow legalistic framing of the immigration debate, my entire career is
really fraudulent and illegal. How can I as someone who has benefited so
much from the field of ABE, now call for the confinement and/or deportation
of those upon which I built a whole career? Am I not as complicit as the
coyote, himself? Are not our programs?
John Holst
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 15:35:06 -0400
From: andresmuro at aol.com
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] A primer on immigration
To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
Message-ID: <8C962E3C77F3FE7-1D18-199D at WEBMAIL-MC17.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Regarding educators, the policies that they should follow are the ones of the school, funding, etc.
they really have no choice. Teachers are not immigration officers, so, they shouldn't be asked to enforce immigration policy. In our program we serve the students that come. the funding pretty much dictates who we can serve. Our adult education ESL funding is for people who want to learn English. Our GED funding is for people who want to get a GED. Our migrant education funding is for people involved in agricultural work. Our health education funds are to provide health literacy classes and so on.
Schools should serve people that want to learn, provided that they teach what people are asking for. It should be pretty straight forward.
Regarding national or global immigration policy, I cannot speak of one definite policy. The immigration issues are the result of global economic issues of poverty, displacement, inequality, etc. Policies will not prevent immigration issues as long as there are issues of poverty, inequality, etc. People will talk about immigration policy for a while. In a couple of years, after the next election, and a couple of Paris Hilton type scandals, a few sports tournaments, etc people will have forgotten that we have an immigration issue. We will continue to co-exist with pretty much the same immigrants and get along fine. At some point, a few years later, another Lou Dobbs will come along and make immigrants the scapegoats for the all problem of the time.
My personal policy is to treat people as people. I try not to make distinctions about nationality, race, gender, class, sexual preference, religion.
Andres
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. _______________________________________________
AAACE-NLA mailing list: AAACE-NLA at lists.literacytent.org
http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
LiteracyTent: web hosting, news, community and goodies for literacy
http://literacytent.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.literacytent.org/pipermail/aaace-nla/attachments/20070514/bc706822/attachment.html
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
AAACE-NLA mailing list
AAACE-NLA at lists.literacytent.org
http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
End of AAACE-NLA Digest, Vol 48, Issue 45
*****************************************
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. _______________________________________________
AAACE-NLA mailing list: AAACE-NLA at lists.literacytent.org
http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
LiteracyTent: web hosting, news, community and goodies for literacy
http://literacytent.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.literacytent.org/pipermail/aaace-nla/attachments/20070515/94272158/attachment-0001.html
More information about the AAACE-NLA
mailing list