[AAACE-NLA] AAACE-NLA Digest, Vol 34, Issue 10
Fay, Mary Jayne
mjfay at doe.mass.edu
Fri Mar 3 13:28:25 EST 2006
David:
I agree that more needs to be done to bridge the gap between the skills
required to pass the GED and those required for college admissions. Based
on my experiences with community colleges' developmental education programs
and overseeing the licensure of private occupational schools, I see several
reasons to bridge the gap.
I've noted that some four-year colleges will not accept students who possess
a GED unless the student can demonstrate a positive track record of
college-level course work. I've also noted that colleges that do admit GED
students typically provide a higher number of "pre-college" courses (also
known as "developmental" courses), which are designed to improve academic
skills. However, I've noted several problems with these pre-college
courses. Students typically take these courses in conjunction with
"regular" academic courses, in which they do poorly because the don't have
the requisite academic skills--which is why they are in the pre-college
courses to begin with! Further, the pre-college courses don't count toward
graduation requirements, which means that the student may need to attend one
or two additional semesters in order to complete their degree requirements.
Finally, colleges charge college-level tuition prices for these courses, for
which students often obtain student loans to attend, which may mean that
they need more loan money to attend school longer because of the pre-college
courses.
I've also noted that students who don't place into college-level courses, or
who don't feel that they are "college material" (whether because of low
self-esteem or lack of confidence in their academic skills) often opt to
attend private vocational schools. Unfortunately, these schools are often
businesses posing as educational institutions and many have a poor track
record of adequately preparing students for future employment. Further,
many students do not realize that coursework taken in these
certificate-granting institutions is not transferable. This latter issue
can be particularly disheartening to students who have spent several months
completing a program of study, but now want to transfer to a degree-granting
institution, only to find that those months of work won't count.
Not bridging the gap, as the above examples suggest, may condemn GED
students to paying more for the same level of education and may place GED
students, and by extension their families, in debt for a longer period of
time as a result. The alternative may be that they won't pursue higher
education and as a result are condemned to lower incomes levels.
Mary Jayne Fay
Coordinator of Adult Basic Education Teacher Licensure and Proprietary
Schools
Massachusetts Department of Education
350 Main Street
Malden, MA 02148
781-338-6048
781-338-6759
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: FW: [aaace-nla] Heckman, Adult Education and Changing
the end point of adult education (David Rosen)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 10:36:57 -0500
From: David Rosen <DJRosen at theworld.com>
Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] FW: [aaace-nla] Heckman, Adult Education and
Changing the end point of adult education
To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE
<aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org>
Message-ID: <8DF8B27B-6403-4613-9ACE-35121B060D9F at theworld.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Hal, and others,
It is time to change the end point of adult education from "earning a
GED" or adult diploma, to preparation (for regular, not
developmental) college courses.
This needs to be reflected in federal and state legislation. The GED
and adult diploma, as they are, are fine for some purposes -- for
those who want recognition of high school equivalency, or need a
diploma or certificate to keep their jobs. However, they do not
necessarily stand for "preparedness for higher education." There is
a gap between the end point of the adult ed system and readiness to
do college-level work. We must address that gap in our programs, but
also formally, in legislation and regulation.
This is needed because adult education students deserve the
opportunity to improve their earning opportunities, to have new and
better jobs and careers, and to pursue higher education. That
opportunity may be there now, but judging by the small numbers of GED
and adult diploma holders who actually succeed in post-secondary
education, and the larger numbers of students who have this as a
goal, one must conclude that it is limited, that our adult education
system needs to do more to make this a real opportunity, to move
beyond college entry as a goal, to make the program goal -- for those
who want to go to college -- preparation for college success.
The difference is not subtle and requires, for most adult learners,
substantially more time in an adult education program, and the
mastery of academic reading and writing, algebra, basic science, and
college-level learning to learn skills. Programs will need
additional resources to pay for providing these. Adult learners will
need to adjust to much more time in a college preparation program
before college.
David J. Rosen
Adult Literacy Advocate
DJRosen at theworld.com
On Mar 3, 2006, at 8:35 AM, Hal Beder wrote:
>
> Add to the economic discussion the fact that the economic returns of
> earning a GED are somewhat between having traditional high school
> certification and having no certification. This is well established
> by Heckman's research as well as studies by Murnane, Tyler and
> others. Moreover, for GED-only graduates earnings are flat over
> time. At retirement they earn pretty much what they started
> at. However, just a little bit of post secondary education makes a
> big difference in earnings and earnings trajectory. To me this means
> that in today's economy we can no longer think of success at adult
> literacy [as measured by earning the GED] as an end point. We must
> think of adult literacy as a beginning and do much more to help move
> those who are successful in adult literacy education into post
> secondary education. Otherwise we are simply preparing folks to toil
> among the working poor.
>
> Yes, this is about Democracy [note the capital D]. What has happened
> to our public discourse about Democracy? In the global sense it
> seems to me that we have reduced it to a structural equation; if a
> nation votes, it's a democracy. In the US, democracy has become
> equated with economic rationality. It's a democracy to the extent
> that income is maximized for those who have power [I include the
> middle class in this group]. Hence raising taxes to redistribute
> income to the needy is anathema. Even liberal Democrat governors
> can't pull it off. If you define a democracy as a society where the
> people get what they want, and if you agree that we are a democracy
> under this definition, then if there is a problem it lies with those
> who constitute the majority of voters in this country.
>
>
>
>
>
> At 03:31 PM 3/2/2006, you wrote:
>> I agree completely. What I think I've learned is that, when we talk
>> about what helps "the economy" or whether the economy is working, we
>> have to ask, "working for whom?" "The economy encompasses (and
>> blurs)
>> everyone, rich, middle and poor. We can, at least up to a point,
>> have a
>> well-functioning economy and yet declining wages and benefits for the
>> poorest income levels. It may be working for the wealthy, and not
>> for
>> the poor, to be blunt about it. Just calling it "the economy"
>> completely obscures this.
>>
>> Andy Sum had an interesting study a few years back about the
>> declining
>> return in the form of wages to lower-income workers, of their own
>> productivity gains. It was wonderfully stark. (This was picked
>> up by
>> columnist Bob Herbert and widely publicized at the time in the
>> newspapers. But now, I hear little about it). In other words,
>> you can
>> work harder and harder, and still earn less and less money as much of
>> what would be your earnings, end up flowing upward to corporate
>> profits
>> and those in the highest income levels. I do worry sometimes that
>> we in
>> the ABE field, too can work harder and harder to increase literacy
>> and
>> educational levels for the working poor, and unless we have some
>> kind of
>> income redistribution, tax fairness, and/or mandatory sharing of
>> profits
>> or productivity gains, folks will still become poorer and poorer, and
>> income inequalities will just continue to grow.
>>
>> And in addition, as we well know, assets as well as income are highly
>> relevant here. If you are low income, it's awfully hard to amass the
>> capital to ever get ahead, in terms of education, higher
>> education, home
>> ownership, investments, etc.--all the things that help lead to
>> increasing income, once you have enough to go after it. And so--the
>> rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
>>
>> A dismal science, indeed.
>>
>> Laurie Sheridan
>>
>>>>> ralf at selkie.ca 03/02 1:15 PM >>>
>> Thanks for your thoughts, Hal.
>>
>> Ralf
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, Mar 2, 2006, at 15:56 Europe/London, Hal Beder wrote:
>>
>>> I think the individual returns to adult literacy are well
>>> documented. A report by Andy Sum using NALS data does this well:
>>> http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=1999470
>>> However, the returns to the general economy are not well documented
>>> at all. To demonstrate that adult literacy is a public good, you
>>> would have to be able to make this second argument and that in my
>>> view is problematic. In NJ about 1/2 the work force works in the
>>> sector that requires no skills or rudimentary on the job training
>> and
>>> that is where most low literates end up. There are jobs;
>> unemployment
>>> in this sector is about 4.9%. These folks serve the folks that have
>>> skills and their lack of skills is the justification for low pay. ..
>>> so I can afford to have my lawn cut and I can buy underwear 3 for 5$
>>> at Target. Make them literate and you have to pay them more. So
>>> what if they are doomed to the working poor? Besides, from a
>>> economic perspective we can't do much about the situation because it
>>> is the result of a global economy over which we have no control. So
>>> from a economic perspective, everything is fine. Low literates work
>>> in a necessary sector of the economy and that sector is functioning
>>> well. Bottom line.... An economic argument that focuses of returns
>>> to the greater economy supports the status quo. That is why, in my
>>> opinion, we must argue from a social justice perspective and we must
>>> do so convincingly. No wonder they call economics the dismal
>> science
>>> [unless of course you are a corporate CEO]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 10:13 AM 3/2/2006, you wrote:
>>>> Hi Hal et al.,
>>>>
>>>> I understand that argument. But surely we'd need to be able to
>>>> demonstrate that there is "immediate" return to adult literacy.
>> This
>>>> would depend on the starting level of the learner, the job market,
>>>> their income etc.-- a set of internal factors as well as the direct
>>
>>>> and
>>>> indirect returns. I'm pretty uncomfortable with this line of
>> argument
>>>> as it would tend to devalue ABE that didn't lead to employment.
>>>>
>>>> More subtly it seems to me that you also run into issues of whether
>>>> education is a public or private good, and the rather nasty
>>>> possibility
>>>> that children's education is a public good and adult education a
>>>> private good, which once more changes the grounds for discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, my point was that I was genuinely curious to know if the
>>>> returns to adult education had ever been well investigated. I've
>> never
>>>> found anything, but suggestions would be welcome!
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Ralf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, Mar 2, 2006, at 13:00 Europe/London, Hal Beder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We really don't need data. The economic benefits to education do
>> not
>>>>> occur until the educated join the work force. For a five year
>> old,
>>>>> this would be 13-15 years. But for adults who are already
>> employed,
>>>>> or ready to be employed, we reap the benefits immediately because
>>>>> they are already part of the workforce.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At 07:05 PM 3/1/2006, you wrote:
>>>>>> A brief message from Ralf St. Clair.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Ralf St.Clair [mailto:ralf at selkie.ca]
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 4:15 PM
>>>>>> To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] [aaace-nla] Heckman and Adult Education
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Hal (et al),
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do we have data on this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, Mar 1, 2006, at 20:58 Europe/London, Hal Beder
>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you educate an adult, the payoff is immediate. For early
>>>>>>> childhood, it takes 15-20 years for an investment to accrue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
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>>>>>> http://literacytent.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Rutgers University
>>>>> Graduate School of Education
>>>>> 10 seminary Pl.
>>>>> New Brunswick, NJ 08901
>>>>> 732-932-7496 ext. 8213
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> AAACE-NLA mailing list: AAACE-NLA at lists.literacytent.org
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>> literacy
>>>>> http://literacytent.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> Rutgers University
>>> Graduate School of Education
>>> 10 seminary Pl.
>>> New Brunswick, NJ 08901
>>> 732-932-7496 ext. 8213
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
> Rutgers University
> Graduate School of Education
> 10 seminary Pl.
> New Brunswick, NJ 08901
> 732-932-7496 ext. 8213
>
> _______________________________________________
> AAACE-NLA mailing list: AAACE-NLA at lists.literacytent.org
> http://lists.literacytent.org/mailman/listinfo/aaace-nla
> LiteracyTent: web hosting, news, community and goodies for literacy
> http://literacytent.org
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