[AAACE-NLA] complex relationship between learning toread&learningto learn

Tue Jan 4 15:43:22 EST 2005

Andrea, George, Catherine et all:

So little time, so much to make comments about!  I may not be here at this computer much longer.  "The Midwest Shuts Down" reads the headline.   The skies have opened up to release a bounty of falling snow - looks like two inches on the parking lot already with a predicted 10" to follow before tomorrow afternoon!

"Clanging Cymbal" indeed portrays the way I feel, George, about giving input to this topic.  I guess I'll call it *my* new name, too - I'm representative of just a small sound in the Big Band Blast as it marches down the street to the beat of my louder brother Drummers and Tubas. 

Indeed.  Many literacy providers are eating a watery broth, nowhere near a feast.  I do not feel as though I can be called a "prophet from the midland", though.  Instead I am "Only a Small Weak Voice" speaking against The Robes (well put, George!)  I feel strongly that there is no truth because The Robes and Other do "impede the pathway" to where we as a field can feel we are united.

Andrea, indeed it *is* upsetting to hear it all over again that the numbers should be the focus.  The at-risk adults we serve are made to feel that they are "Just a Number" in too many *other* entities that provide them other services.  Now we are expected to do it to them, *too*?

You wrote in your 2nd email: 
<<..."The TABE associates nicely with the GED, according to one list subscriber who knows both well.  And I know that not every literacy student 
wants to get a GED. But there certainly is generalizability between 
literacy domains.  Experiences, which are the usual measure of domains, are 
not cut off at the border.  Nouns in one domain exist in other domains. ..." >>

You are absolutely right that "not every literacy student wants to get a GED." because whole programs like mine are serving learners whose reading skills are so low that they aren't able to even consider studying for a GED!  So is the "generalizability between literacy domains" to totally ignore this as a *fact* when it *exists* as fact?

Your expectation that *all* adults be measured with Tests, doesn't take into any consideration whatsoever that the reading skill level of a literacy student and the GED prep student are worlds apart!  (Using your baking metaphor) the men and women literacy students I serve would stand beside you at the kitchen counter trembling because *all* they know successfully about baking a luscious apple pie is how to turn *on* the mixer -- none of the rest of it that you listed is in their base of knowledge.  So they wouldn't experienc even baking a pie that's tasty.  

They also have not experienced success when it comes to being Tested.  These adults will be traumatized by any *sort* of activity that uses an instrument that starts with that capital "T". So how accurate will the data be that we collect?  And we are going to tell them it's so we can "collect numbers" when I've already said that students at the level we serve don't *care* about their number.  Let's take a real example:  How about the 56 year-old gent in my P.S. who has no *intention* of getting a GED? How would you suggest we "measure" his courage?  Or perhaps that isn't an important piece of data to those who make decisions when they have already stated that success is an increased number.

Nancy Hansen
Sioux Falls Area Literacy Council
sfallsliteracy at yahoo.com

AWilder106 at aol.com wrote:
George, aka "Clanging Cymbal,"

I woke in the middle of the night thinking I might not have the strength or the knowledge or the time to continue on this theme, which has been going strong since last summer. There are a lot of smart people here. Sometimes I can only point out the difficulty and hope that others will resolve the problems.

I am 5'7", when I am older I will probably be 5'6" or 5'5" or shorter. However, now I am 5'7". Numbers have meaning--and let's not drag Einstein in here or go into the relativity of numbers. 

If I were a funder I would not fund anything unless the field could come up with some way to measure what it is doing--the development of skilled readers. If a program looked promising I would focus on pushing it to figure out how to measure its results.

I think there probably isn't an "if"--I would say that in some cases higher scores on some sort of (valid, reliable) test, which indicate degree of mastery, lead to life changing experiences--for some. 

The TABE associates nicely with the GED, according to one list subscriber who knows both well. And I know that not every literacy student wants to get a GED. But there certainly is generalizability between literacy domains. Experiences, which are the usual measure of domains, are not cut off at the border. Nouns in one domain exist in other domains. 

Use of quantity may cover a darker political side, but that is no reason to stop trying to solve the problem. People who subscribe to the darker side get so irritated when you come up with the solution, I have found. That can be kind of fun, assuming they don't have knives or guns or have political power over you--big assumptions in my experience, so one must be careful where one finds fun. 

We could debate mastery until the cows come home, I'll leave that to you and others. 

I often don't care about the values, I assume people will find them for themselves, express them themselves. I assume there is a link between happiness and having survived a tidal wave, and happiness at being fed when one is hungry. When I'm an educator, my job is to create skilled readers as fast as possible, as quickly as possible. If an analysis of "rich narratives" will help me do that, fine. Nancy's method of essentially asking students "What works" is a decent one.

She is able to measure progress using ProLiteracy models and measures. She needs the money for the LD testing, and she isn't the only one in this fix, others spoke up on the LD list when I asked the question of "where?" 

As to who lives and who dies, what gets funded and what doesn't, when muddiness in outcomes prevails, then I bet it's programs which are embedded in districts, programs that have lots of people supporting them, whether they have measurable results or not. I accept that political reality, it's out there.

However there is a lot of strength in "this works, and I will show you how it works and how we measure it working." Would I ever like to hear that from more people. There are a handful on this list who have said that, and whose experience with "what works" is generalizable. 

A bientot for now,

Andrea

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