[AAACE-NLA] Re: AAACE-NLA Digest, Vol 4, Issue 23

[Jon Steinberg]

I think exploring U.S. budgetary priorities could be a valuable exercise in
a literacy class, depending on how it was framed. A discussion here of ways
to do that would be helpful. It would also be relevant for a literacy class
to discuss the cultural costs of the war for Iraq. For example, although
American troops carefully protected the Ministry of Oil in Baghdad from
attack, the U.S. Army permitted arsonists to loot the National Museum and
burn the Koranic Library and the Ottoman, Royal, and State libraries.
Fruitful questions for discussion might include: Who might have committed
these crimes? How important are historical records to a nation's culture?
How great a catastrophe would it be if similar destruction occurred here in
the United States. Why would the American government permit such
destruction, particularly when prominent Middle East scholars had met with
high U.S. officials before the invasion to urge that these repositories of
culture be protected? What is the link between democracy and culture?

At 12:08 PM 9/23/2003 -0400, you wrote:
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>Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re:  Is US foreign policy a relevant topic for this list?
>      (Effie  Franklin)
>   2. Re:  Is US foreign policy a relevant topic for this list?
>      (Catherine B. King)
>   3. Re:  Is US foreign policy a relevant topic for this list?
>      (George E. Demetrion)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:39:34 -0500
>From: "Effie  Franklin" <jamlat at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Is US foreign policy a relevant topic for
>	this list?
>To: "National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE"
>	<aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org>
>Cc: jamlat at earthlink.net
>Message-ID: <004401c38152$0470ab60$03000004 at aoldsl.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>I agree with this student.  As adult educators is it not our duty to
>eradicate learned ignorance and learned helplessness by being those
>flashlights to turn on the beamers to make students aware of governmental
>decisions/policies that impact their and our lives on a daily basis.  This
>type of discussion within the classroom that addresses current issues on war
>and governmental policies, is it not relevant to social studies - history,
>government, geography, civics and citizenship.  These types discussions are
>also defined as current events and are relevant to their and our lives now.
>If social and educational programs are being cut and millions of people are
>loosing their jobs everyday and the United States government is spending
>approximately $87 billion dollars a week to stabilize and rebuild  Iraq -
>what is the effect on the American people.  These are real issues - current
>events that should be discussed and explored as to their ramifications upon
>American citizens within and outside of the classroom.
>
>Freedom of information is right in a free society.  The classroom should be
>a mirror of life, the truth and not a suppressor of the truth.  If students
>or citizens  or both are informed about issues - the pros and cons then they
>are equipped to make informed decisions when they go to the polls.
>
>Education should be about empowerment and not about dependency, learned
>ignorance or learned helplessness.
>
>One of the Texas 18
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kaizen ESL Program" <kaizen_esl at literacynet.org>
>To: "National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE"
><aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org>
>Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 9:26 AM
>Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Is US foreign policy a relevant topic for this
>list?
>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I think budgets for all aspects of education are being cut in every state.
>> And, at the same time, public institutions and private non-profit
>> organizations are being asked to spend more money on fulfilling federal
>> government requirements for standardized tests, etc. So, the real
>> educational services suffer.
>>
>> Below is a short paragraph that one of my ESL students wrote in response
>to
>> a story we read about press censorship and persecution of journalists.
>When
>> I told him about the debate going on on this list, he asked if I could
>share
>> his paragraph with you. He is a very intelligent man in his early 50s, who
>> came to this country as a refugee from Africa when he was in his 40s. He
>has
>> had low vision since he was a child and never learned to read and write in
>> his country of origin, even though he comes from a family that was rich
>> before civil conflict broke out in his country of origin. All of his male
>> family members are college educated, but he did not receive a formal
>> education because there were no teaching facilities for people with visual
>> limitations in the country. When he came here, he learned to read and
>write
>> with braille while learning English. He has studied very hard, become a
>> citizen, helps others from his country of origin to study for the
>> citizenship exam/interview, as well as with finding social services, and
>is
>> studying for his GED.
>>
>> The less money we have for assisting people like this man, the more human
>> potential and real lives will be wasted, and the more our society will be
>> impoverished.
>>
>> Here is what he wrote:
>>
>> "I think it is a good idea for people to write things they know may make
>> government officials angry enough to put them in prison because The
>writers
>> are looking at what everyday every time government and people are doing,
>if
>> they are good things or bad things.  If they see  either one, the writers
>> write and put in the press.  Today most governments say they have
>democracy.
>> Other governments don't like democracy.  All together they don't like some
>> writers to write to show the people what they do secretly.  I think that
>it
>> is a good idea for writers to write because without light people can't see
>> anything.  With light people can see things.  writing is like light.  When
>> writers write They help people know about things.  The press is like a
>> flashlight.  It is important to fight to help people know about things.
>It
>> is better to see the truth."
>>
>> Sylvie Kashdan
>> Instructor/Curriculum Coordinator
>> KAIZEN PROGRAM for New English Learners with Visual Limitations
>> 810-A Hiawatha Place South
>> Seattle, WA  98144
>> phone:  (206) 784-5619
>> email:  kaizen_esl at literacynet.org
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <mev at litwomen.org>
>> To: "National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE"
>> <aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 5:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Is US foreign policy a relevant topic for this
>> list?
>>
>>
>> I believe it's relevant if we can tie it to issues concerning adult
>> literacy - as others have suggested....
>>
>> How do we address issues of media literacy in relation to ABE , news
>> reporting, and unconditional or uncritical acceptance of what authority
>> figures (US politicians, teachers, policy-makers, researchers, etc)
>> tell us....etc and related topics
>>
>> cost of war and the 87 billion (as Elsa and Sylvie have mentioned) --
>> actually, i thought Elsa's questions were very useful and worth
>> discussing...and how do we extend those questions to our classroom and
>> perhaps enlist the support of student groups to raise these issues to
>> our congressional leaders -- BEFORE they vote! can we take these
>> questions to activism?
>>
>> and, of course, the on-going classroom issues of discussing war and its
>> effects on our communities in our classrooms. how many students have
>> relatives in the service? did they enlist because it was their last
>> resort for financial security? what are the connections between
>> enlisting, poverty, education, literacy?
>>
>> is there a history of connections between the ways in which education &
>> literacy are discussed or promoted in the US in relation to the need
>> for soldiers?
>>
>> and, of course all the issues related to our immigrant ESOL learners,
>> citizenship, immigration, undocumented incarcerations, enforced
>> registration, the promise of US citizenship for enlisting to be a
>> soldier, and ongoing issues for Muslim students...etc.
>>
>> How do we understand education as a right or freedom, especially for
>> ABE learners? how does this correspond to issues of the Patriot act,
>> freedom of speech, etc?
>>
>> anyway, you get the idea. The "war" (US aggression in the world based
>> on lies to the US population & the world) is in our faces everyday. It
>> affects our well-being on the planet, our families and communities, our
>> economy, our education budgets, etc. and so on. to think we can't
>> discuss it  within this context -- especially as educators -- and I
>> hope Critical educators -- seems ludicrous to me. though I would like
>> to see this conversation connected to the many ramifications for us as
>> educators and for our students. but yet not to the exclusion of other
>> issues.
>> Mev
>>
>>
>> On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 10:09  AM, George E. Demetrion wrote:
>>
>> > Thus far we've heard from the usual suspects; I'm sure that's a refrain
>> > many are saying.  That could be enlarged by the thoughts of others,
>> > especially among those who hold another position.
>> >
>> > Is a discsussion of the US Iraqi adventure relevant to this list?
>> >
>> > What do others say?
>> >
>> > George Demetrion
>> >
>> > P.S.
>> >
>> > Of course, more usual suspects are enouraged to reply
>> >
>> >
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:56:19 -0700
>From: "Catherine B. King" <cb.king at verizon.net>
>Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Is US foreign policy a relevant topic for
>	this list?
>To: "National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE"
>	<aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org>
>Message-ID: <003c01c3812a$75362c80$0807f843 at preferreduser>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>Hello All:
>
>I happen to think that impressive reasons existed a long time
>ago to invade Iraq, especially when Sadaam gassed whole
>towns of people.
>
>Education and its root literacy happens in cultures and not only
>in institutions as we tend to think about it.  Sylvie's student
>speaks clearly to this direct relationship between democracy,
>education, literacy and freedom of the press and thought.
>I think Freire would agree with him, as well as Che:
>
>"I think that it is a good idea for writers to write because without
>light people can't see anything.  With light people can see things.
>Writing is like light.  When writers write They help people know
>about things.  The press is like a flashlight.  It is important to fight
>to help people know about things.  It is better to see the truth."
>
>Thus, in my view, the loss of a brutal dictator is a move in the right
>direction; and clearing the way for a <potential> democracy in the
>middle east, though messy, is a VERY long-run good thing.
>
>The reason?  The only ideology of a democracy is that anyone can
>question the ideology; and all are invited to do so through literacy,
>a democratic education and the free press, speech, assembly
>and the negative protections of due process.  Also, democratic
>nations run by the rule of law, openness, and human rights have
>no real borders--in principle.  That our current administration acts
>like it doesn't understand its own principles is, ahem, beside the
>point.
>
>My complaint is that it was done for the wrong reasons; that the
>world is still way too willing to let dictators murder at will, and quash
>education, free press, literacy, and free thought; and that even if
>we and our press demanded to find out what happens to Iraq's
>own wealth--the wealth that would help limit our own investments
>in their education towards democracy--we would be lied to.
>
>Like here, It is not outside forces but rather literacy, education
>and the will of the people of Iraq that will determine whether
>democracy will hold there.
>
>Unfortunately, I think that if anything really gets done in Iraq, it will
>not be because the United States as a democracy wants it to be
>done, but rather because it happens to be congruent with the
>corporate needs of Halliburton and Bechtel et al, and not without it.
>My guess is that the money we are losing for our programs is
>going straight to these and other American-world corporations
>where the money is "disappeared" behind the dazzling curtain of
>corporate slick and sleaze.  And this makes me quite literally sick
>to my stomach as a teacher, as a taxpayer, and as an American.
>
>But if there is any concrete hope of limiting or even ridding the
>world of terrorists over the long run, it won't be through Patriot Acts
>or jails in Cuba, or corporate congruence, but rather through
>long-term investments in comprehensive cultural "flashlights"
>made for this purpose alone.
>
>Thanks to Sylvie for sharing her student's thoughts with us.  This
>person obviously understands the most fundamental and essential
>insights about what is important about democracy, education and
>literacy.
>
>Regards,
>
>Catherine King
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Kaizen ESL Program <kaizen_esl at literacynet.org>
>To: National Literacy Advocacy List sponsored by AAACE
><aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org>
>Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:26 AM
>Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Is US foreign policy a relevant topic for this
>list?
>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I think budgets for all aspects of education are being cut in every state.
>> And, at the same time, public institutions and private non-profit
>> organizations are being asked to spend more money on fulfilling federal
>> government requirements for standardized tests, etc. So, the real
>> educational services suffer.
>>
>> Below is a short paragraph that one of my ESL students wrote in response
>to
>> a story we read about press censorship and persecution of journalists.
>When
>> I told him about the debate going on on this list, he asked if I could
>share
>> his paragraph with you. He is a very intelligent man in his early 50s, who
>> came to this country as a refugee from Africa when he was in his 40s. He
>has
>> had low vision since he was a child and never learned to read and write in
>> his country of origin, even though he comes from a family that was rich
>> before civil conflict broke out in his country of origin. All of his male
>> family members are college educated, but he did not receive a formal
>> education because there were no teaching facilities for people with visual
>> limitations in the country. When he came here, he learned to read and
>write
>> with braille while learning English. He has studied very hard, become a
>> citizen, helps others from his country of origin to study for the
>> citizenship exam/interview, as well as with finding social services, and
>is
>> studying for his GED.
>>
>> The less money we have for assisting people like this man, the more human
>> potential and real lives will be wasted, and the more our society will be
>> impoverished.
>>
>> Here is what he wrote:
>>
>> "I think it is a good idea for people to write things they know may make
>> government officials angry enough to put them in prison because The
>writers
>> are looking at what everyday every time government and people are doing,
>if
>> they are good things or bad things.  If they see  either one, the writers
>> write and put in the press.  Today most governments say they have
>democracy.
>> Other governments don't like democracy.  All together they don't like some
>> writers to write to show the people what they do secretly.  I think that
>it
>> is a good idea for writers to write because without light people can't see
>> anything.  With light people can see things.  writing is like light.  When
>> writers write They help people know about things.  The press is like a
>> flashlight.  It is important to fight to help people know about things.
>It
>> is better to see the truth."
>>
>> Sylvie Kashdan
>> Instructor/Curriculum Coordinator
>> KAIZEN PROGRAM for New English Learners with Visual Limitations
>> 810-A Hiawatha Place South
>> Seattle, WA  98144
>> phone:  (206) 784-5619
>> email:  kaizen_esl at literacynet.org
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:42:10 -0700
>From: "George E. Demetrion" <sophocles5 at juno.com>
>Subject: Re: [AAACE-NLA] Is US foreign policy a relevant topic for
>	this list?
>To: aaace-nla at lists.literacytent.org
>Message-ID: <20030923.074211.6398.0.sophocles5 at juno.com>
>
>Colleagues:
>
>In an analysis of the President's interview with Fox newscaster, Britt
>Hume, one commentator expressed perplexity in Bush's lack of desire to
>read newspaper commentaries about his policies.  The commentator noted
>that Bush has excellent advisors that represent one stream of American
>thought, but by blocking himself off from direct access to other
>perspectives (unlike other presidents, the commentator noted) he was
>isolating the intellectual universe by which he is compelled to make
>critically important (and life and death) decisions.
>
>This has been one of the major problems with the President's Iraqi
>policy.  No doubt shaken by 9-11 (what responsible decision-maker would
>not be?), the influence of the neoconservative New American Century
>proponents became pervasive, with serious consideration given to an
>attack on Iraq as the first response to 9-11.  That was obviously
>rejected, but the connection between the war on terrorism and Saddam was
>clearly in the forefront of administration thinking.  Published reports
>in such mainstream magazines as Time pointed to a decision already made
>to invade Iraq as early as spring 2002, some 6 months before the
>President addressed the United Nations with a challenge to become
>relevant.
>
>In the administration key foreign policy decisions were being made by the
>Department of Defense rather than the State Department, which on its face
>should have raised alarm bells among the politically astute regardless of
>one's specific ideology.  In fact, several key advisors in the earlier
>Bush administration challenged the wisdom of an Iraqi adventure where
>little (or no) connection could be made between Iraq and (a) 9-11, (b) Al
>Queda, (c) fundamentalist Islamic terrorism.  As we learned later from
>the mouth of Paul Wolfowitz, the WMD issue was not the major cause of the
>war.  Rather, it served as the consenus reason to unify the various
>advisors to the administration.  Consequently it was pushed as the
>primary cause and (contrary to the scientific method) evidence was
>ardently sought to verify the supposition that Iraq had significant
>volumes of WMD.  Even on this, when pressed,  the administration waffled,
>drawing on Churchillian imagery to talk about the "gathering" rather than
>imminent threat.  Moreover, toward the end of the decision-making
>process, it was becoming evidently clearer that even if Saddam had gotten
>rid of WMD, short of Saddam's evacuation of Iraq, an invasion was going
>to proceed.
>
>In the President's world view (apparently) Colin Powell represented the
>most "radical" position of caution that would attain a legitimate
>hearing.  Views outside the narrow band of the administration's world
>view were simply viewed beyond the pale and closed off from the
>President's consideration.  This was in part the result of the influence
>of his advisors to push their views, but also because of his innate lack
>of intellectual curiosity even over matters that arguably should vitally
>concern his decision-making capacity.  
>
> Add to that his imagery as a "manager," called to make tough decisions,
>his polarized theological world view, his Texas stance of toughness and
>plain words, and the persuasiveness of his political base, then you have
>a prescription for an uninformed decision.  The fact that the President
>simply did not want to hear views significantly in conflict with his own
>and intentionally blocks them out of his own thinking is a serious
>shortcoming that should cause many (even supporters) to pause.  As a
>political fundamentalist he simply does not want to deal with complexity
>beyond the core boundaries of his own somewhat limited world view.
>
>What I have not seen and what I would like to see here are the five or
>six cogent reasons in support of the President's decision to invade Iraq
>and the logic, reasoning, and evidence upon which they are based.  With
>Catherine, I agree that there was ample justification to topple Saddam on
>his gross violation of human rights, but what is offered by the Bush
>administration as a justification was not a significant cause belli of
>the war.  In various messages I have offered what I think were the
>underlying rationales for the Iraqi policy and I may refer to them here
>as this discussion proceeds.
>
>At this point I think it's more important for someone to provide an
>outline of the substantive reasons from the administrative's point of
>view in justification of the policy and then let us see where the better
>argument resides.  Of course, we could just by-pass that discussion, but
>in doing so, one only reinforces a civic illiteracy that is all to
>pervasive in the US political culture.  Perhaps one of the contributions
>of adult literacy education to the public good is the establishment of
>one additional forum where serious discussion  of this issue, hopefully
>from competing perspectives can take place.
>
>As a final point, I do encourage those who are concerned that this
>discussion does not belong on this list to speak up with cogent reasons
>for their position.  I do feel the procedural issue is still important
>even as, perhaps we are moving toward a substantive discussion of the
>policy.
>
>George Demetrion
>
>
>________________________________________________________________
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>------------------------------
>
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>
>End of AAACE-NLA Digest, Vol 4, Issue 23
>****************************************
>
>